The Search for the Ultimate Fish Food

Having a current food review topic starting to branch out into this topic, I thought maybe we should post up a thread were we could hash out and argue and discuss what we think are the best and worst fish foods and why.  Feel free to post links for research purposes and to speak your mind.  No taking things personally here...just good discussion about foods and what we feed and why.  Ultimately the goal of this thread should be to identify what we think are the "best" foods out there for our fish and why and to discuss those we think are not so good.  

Here are a couple of links to either other discussion threads or other sites that share information on fish foods.
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Foods we feed. I'll start.  I feed a variety of foods to my fish but I have four basic foods that are my standbys...the remaining are frozen foods like mysis shrimp, bloodworms, some live foods like blackworms, and some fresh veggies like peas and zucchini.

My four standbys are as follows:
NLS 1MM sinking Cichlid pellets

Ingredients
Krill Meal, Fish Meal, Wheat Flour, Amino Acids, Algae Meal, Soybean Meal, Fish Oil, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal Sterol, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine, Biotin, DL-Alpha-Tocopherol, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Choline Chloride, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Ethoxyquin.

Guaranteed Analysis
Protein 34.0% min
Fat         5.0% min
Fiber         5.0% max
Moisture 10.0% max
Ash         9.0% max

Repashy foods (a variety depending on the tanks...some get Community, some Shrimp Souflee, some Soilent Green)
Repashy Community Plus
INGREDIENTS: Whole Krill Meal, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Whole Squid Meal, Stabilized Rice Bran, Whole Sardine Meal, Dried Brewers Yeast, Spirulina Algae, Chlorella Algae, Carrageenan Algae, Dried Kelp,  Konjac, Carob Bean Gum, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Taurine, Potassium Citrate, Calcium Propionate, Schizochytrium Algae, Phaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Paprika Extract, Calendula Flower Powder, Marigold Flower Extract, Rose Hips Powder, Turmeric Root Powder, Malic Acid, Sodium Chloride, Canthaxanthin, Potassium Sorbate, Magnesium Gluconate, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).

Repashy Soilent Green
INGREDIENTS: Chlorella Algae, Spirulina Algae, Whole Krill Meal, Whole Squid Meal, Whole Sardine Meal, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Whole Anchovy Meal, Germinated Brown Rice Protein Concentrate, Pea Protein Isolate, Dried Brewers Yeast, Stabilized Rice Bran, Dried Kelp, Carrageenan Algae, Konjac, Carob Bean Gum, Schizochytrium Algae, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Taurine, Potassium Citrate, Calcium Propionate, Phaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Paprika Extract, Calendula Flower Powder, Marigold Flower Extract, Rose Hips Powder, Turmeric Root Powder, Malic Acid, Sodium Chloride, Canthaxanthin, Potassium Sorbate, Magnesium Gluconate, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).
Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 45%, Crude Fat min. 6%, Crude Fat max. 8%, Crude Fiber max. 8%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 12%, Calcium min. 1.5%, Calcium max. 2%, Phosphorus min. 0.75%.

Repashy Shrimp Souflee
INGREDIENTS: Whole Squid Meal, Whole Krill Meal, Whole Sardine Meal, Pea Protein Isolate,  Spirulina Algae, Dried Brewer’s Yeast, Alfalfa Leaf Powder, Stabilized Rice Bran, Germinated Brown Rice Protein Concentrate, Carrageenan Algae, Konjac, Carob Bean Gum, Dried Kelp, Potassium Citrate, Calcium Propionate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Taurine, Schizochytrium Algae, Phaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Paprika Extract, Calendula Flower Powder, Marigold Flower Extract, Rose Hips Powder, Turmeric Root Powder, Malic Acid, Sodium Chloride, Canthaxanthin, Potassium Sorbate, Magnesium Gluconate, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).

Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 45%, Crude Fat min. 6%, Crude Fat max. 8%, Crude Fiber max. 8%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 9%, Calcium min. 1.5%, Calcium max. 2.5%, Phosphorus min. 0.75%.

Nutrafin Max Spirulina Flake (all tanks get a little of this, some more than others)
INGREDIENTS: Dried spirulina algae, fish meal,
oatmeal, krill, soybean flour, dried garlic, shrimp meal, dried kelp, squid liver meal, fish liver meal, dried yeast, wheat germ meal, salmon oil (ethoxyquin used as preservative), flaxseed oil, vitamins (cholecalciferol, biotin, d-calcium pantothenate, folic acid, inositol, niacin supplement, riboflavin-5-phosphate, calcium L-ascorbyl-2-monophosphate, vitamin A acetate, thiamine hydrochloride, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity)), lecithin, sodium citrate, minerals (manganous oxide, ferrous carbonate, zinc oxide, copper oxide, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate, calcium carbonate), yeast extract, fructooligosaccharide, beta-carotene.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Crude protein Min. 44%; Crude fat Min. 10%; Omega-3 Fatty Acids Min. 1.25%; Omega-6 Fatty Acids Min. 1.75%; Crude fibre Max. 1.5%; Moisture Max. 7%; Ash Max. 9%; Calcium Min. 0.5%; Phosphorus Min. 0.7%; Magnesium Min. 0.15%; Copper Min. 20 ppm; Cobalt Min. 0.2 ppm; Iron Min. 350 ppm; Iodine Min. 1.2 ppm; Manganese Min. 10 ppm; Zinc Min. 25 ppm; Vitamin A Min. 10,000 IU/lb; Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) Min. 500 mg/lb; Vitamin E Min. 50 IU/lb; Beta-Carotene Min. 2,000 IU/lb

I also use DRAF flakes but do not have an ingredient list for them.  My assumption was that this is a general flake food similar to others that are on the market.  Bad Donna...bad bad bad.  I have quite a stock of them as I did a big order so it will be some time before I run out of them.

Of all the foods I feed, I feel the most important food is the SPIRULINA. Everything I have read, points to how important it is to feed spirulina to your fish.

I have used Zoo Med's Spirulina 20 and feel like this is a high quality flake food.

Here is an online review with some detail as to why: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Crude Protein (min)... 45.0%
Crude Fat (min)... 4.0%
Crude Fiber (max)... 3.0%
Moisture (max)... 8.0%
Zoo Med Spirulina 20 Fish Food Flakes Ingredients:

Salmon Fish Meal, Spirulina Algae Meal, Soy Flour, Wheat Flour, Brewers Dried Yeast, Corn Starch, Dried Krill Meal, Shrimp Meal, Plankton Meal, Lecithin, Vegetable Oil, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (stabilized Vitamin C).

Cichlid gal, while the top ingredients of those repashy foods are impressive, I have a difficult time with any gel foods, simply based on the fact that when you add a large amount of jello and water to them, you make a very large dive in the levels of nutrients you are providing, due to the process of diluting the good stuff with water.

dmd, of the top 6 ingredients listed for that flake food, 4 are fillers, with only 2 being "good nutrient rich" ones. Not to mention, that flake food as a whole, absorbs a lot of water and leaches vital nutrients into the water the very quikly, and right away as soon as it touches liquid.

My .02

With Spirulina being 20% of the product and Salmon meal being listed first (so higher content) The 'fillers' are probably a lot less than other brands out there. Many look better due to 'wet' weight items being placed first but in their dry form you would find most brands have a higher grain base than you would like. I still feel it is a high quality flake. I use this on smaller community fish but the flakes are LARGE enough that even my big Pearsei can eat them. Though I do prefer feeding pellets.

Anthony J. wrote:Cichlid gal, while the top ingredients of those repashy foods are impressive, I have a difficult time with any gel foods,  simply based on the fact that when you add a large amount of jello and water to them, you make a very large dive in the levels of nutrients you are providing,  due to the process of diluting the good stuff with water.

dmd, of the top 6 ingredients listed for that flake food,  4 are fillers, with only 2 being "good nutrient rich" ones. Not to mention, that flake food as a whole,  absorbs a lot of water and leaches vital nutrients into the water the very quikly, and right away as soon as it touches liquid.

My .02

Anthony....I like the Repashy foods and my fish do too. I like the fact they have "whole" fish meal (and the 1st 4 ingredients of the Repashy Shrimp Souflee bang the gong so to speak). What I don't know about is the "gel" factor. I will do some research on that and see what I can find but my gut feeling tells me that it's not an issue really.

As for flake absorbing lots of water and leaching vital nutrients into the water...my fish eat the flake food so fast that water flys out of my tank and I'm a soaking mess by the time feedings are done...no really...my fish eat the flake food so fast I don't think it hangs around long enough to lose anything over time as there is no time for that to happen.

DMD123 wrote:I have used Zoo Med's Spirulina 20 and feel  like this is a high quality flake food.

DMD...I remember when I was first researching spirulina flake that I looked at the Zoo Med product. I don't know why I went with the Nutrafin one instead other than the higher spirulina content (with write ups showing formula featuring a 40-Percent Spirulina, 5-Percent garlic flake).

Nice thread, I have been feeding my Tropheus a mix of high quality flake,  Ocean Nutrition formula marine pellet 2 and NLS Thera A

NLS
Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, Whole Herring Meal, Whole Wheat Flour, Algae Meal, Garlic, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Vegetable and Fruit Extract, Ginseng, Vitamin A Acetate, DL Alphatocopherol (E), D-Activated Animal-Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Pantothenate, L-Ascorby-2-Polyphosphate (Stable C), Choline Chloride, Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate and Manganese Sulfate.

Protein 38% Min., Fat 9% Min., Fiber 5% Max., Ash 9% Max., Moisture 10% Max.
 

The Formula2 pellet

Shrimp, Euphasia pacifica plankton, sardine, kelp, wheat flour, squid, fish eggs, soya-lecithin, Spirulina, salmon oil, garlic, minerals (potassium iodide, iron oxide, manganese sulfate, magnesium oxide, zinc sulfate), MPAX™ (Marine Protein Amino eXtract: fish meals, hydrolysates, select amino acids (L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, L-Tryptophan)), vitamins (ascorbic acid (vitamin C), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, nicotonic acid, riboflavin (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), tocopherol acetate (vitamin E)), Betaïne, calcium proprionate, potassium sorbate, ethoxyquin, carotenoid pigments (astaxanthin, canthaxanthin), yeast (ßeta-glucan).

Guaranteed analysis

Protein 38.1 %
Fiber 2.8 %
Fat 9.7 %
Ash 10.5 %
Moisture 14.5 %


The Flake as a treat then I mix the NLS and the other together..  Seems to be working well!!

JimA wrote:Nice thread, I have been feeding my Tropheus a mix of high quality flake,  Ocean Nutrition formula marine pellet 2 and NLS Thera A

NLS
Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, Whole Herring Meal, Whole Wheat Flour, Algae Meal, Garlic, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, .....

The Formula2 pellet
Shrimp, Euphasia pacifica plankton, sardine, kelp, wheat flour, squid, fish eggs, soya-lecithin, Spirulina, salmon oil, garlic.....

Thanks Jim...hey...I like that Thera A formula.  I donated a whole bucket of that stuff to the GSAS spring auction because I use the small stuff and had a bucket of the Thera A shipped to me by accident...hmmm...now I'm wishing I had given that some thought...

And the Ocean Nutrition Formula 2 looks pretty good too.

Oh..and after spending some time reviewing all this stuff I have decided that John and I need to be eating SPIRULINA too.  I'm gonna get some powder and make smoothies in the morning.  Eating with the fishes we will be

I use NLS in my "mix"..... right now the hard core NLS people are cringing because it does it all, right? My mix also includes Hikari Cichlid Excel, Dainichi XL and NLS. My stock are mostly vegetarians, lol. Really they are.

cichlid-gal wrote:

JimA wrote:Nice thread, I have been feeding my Tropheus a mix of high quality flake,  Ocean Nutrition formula marine pellet 2 and NLS Thera A

NLS
Whole Antarctic Krill Meal, Whole Herring Meal, Whole Wheat Flour, Algae Meal, Garlic, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, .....

The Formula2 pellet
Shrimp, Euphasia pacifica plankton, sardine, kelp, wheat flour, squid, fish eggs, soya-lecithin, Spirulina, salmon oil, garlic.....

Thanks Jim...hey...I like that Thera A formula.  I donated a whole bucket of that stuff to the GSAS spring auction because I use the small stuff and had a bucket of the Thera A shipped to me by accident...hmmm...now I'm wishing I had given that some thought...

And the Ocean Nutrition Formula 2 looks pretty good too.

Oh..and after spending some time reviewing all this stuff I have decided that John and I need to be eating SPIRULINA too.  I'm gonna get some powder and make smoothies in the morning.  Eating with the fishes we will be

 The only way I eat that stuff is with my Sushi Wait I guess that's seaweed..

I was surprised by the Ocean Nutrition, one of the guys on Trophs.com had been using it. It's made with salt water fish in mind, but my Trophs love it, it's a softer pellet not crunchy, and it sinks..

Ive wanted to try the Ocean Nutrition Cichlid Veggie Pellet for a while but its harder to find at my usual places. It seems to have a good reputation. Anyone here try that formula?

DMD123 wrote:Ive wanted to try the Ocean Nutrition Cichlid Veggie Pellet for a while but its harder to find at my usual places. It seems to have a good reputation. Anyone here try that formula?

A bit different, not sure the fish would notice??


Cichlid  brand

Vegetable matter (alfalfa, corn, soybean, wheat), fish meal, Spirulina, kelp, krill (Euphasia superba), fish hydrolysate, brewers yeast, lecithin, salmon oil, garlic, vitamins (ascorbic acid (vitamin C), biotin (vitamin H), cyanocobalamine (vitamin B12), riboflavin (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), pantothenic acid (vitamin B5), menadione (vitamin K3), folacin (vitamin B9), cholecalciferol (vitamin D3), retinol (vitamin A1), pyridoxine (vitamin B6), niacin (vitamin B3)), minerals (calcium carbonate, cobalt carbonate, copper sulphate, manganese sulphate, calcium iodide, sodium selenite, zinc sulphate, magnesium sulphate), asthaxanthin and preservatives (BHA, BHT, and ethoxyquin).


Formula 2

Shrimp, Euphasia pacifica plankton, sardine, kelp, wheat flour, squid, fish eggs, soya-lecithin, Spirulina, salmon oil, garlic, minerals (potassium iodide, iron oxide, manganese sulfate, magnesium oxide, zinc sulfate), MPAX™ (Marine Protein Amino eXtract: fish meals, hydrolysates, select amino acids (L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, L-Tryptophan)), vitamins (ascorbic acid (vitamin C), biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, nicotonic acid, riboflavin (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), tocopherol acetate (vitamin E)), Betaïne, calcium proprionate, potassium sorbate, ethoxyquin, carotenoid pigments (astaxanthin, canthaxanthin), yeast (ßeta-glucan).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Lot's of good information with actual analysis regarding ingredients and nutritional content.

I've been feeding this almost exclusively for dry food for a year or so. It's fresh & my fish love it!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I like the link bronzefighter ... while I don't agree with their wacky rating system, I do like seeing all the ingredients and at what percentages. Gives me a few new foods to target. Thanks!

I too enjoyed the link, there is the major drawback that its very difficult to base a food in a bracket simply off of its ingredients list, as there are many factors to consider in the way the food itself is delivered, like a hard pellet vs a very crumbly one, or a waffer vs flake. But, the ingredients lists are quit handy, and all in one place.
I would like to touch base on dianachi for second. This is regarded by some people as the best food on the market. And guess what, I agree with those people, if you are feeding koi, carp, or goldfish. To me, hands down dianachi is great for those fish, but adding a few additional ingredients to an excellent koi formula, and calling it a cichlid food, has never made sense to me.

I probably don't need to share what I feed but will anyway, I feed exclusively New Life Spectrum. I feel it is the leader of the pack when it comes to fish nutrition, and there is so much information to back it up. I buy 3 sizes, in the big buckets twice a year. Grow, for cichlid fry, live bearers, tetras and corydoras, 2mm for juvenile cichlids, and thorichthys species,  and 4.5 for all my big guys. My large predatory fish get to munch on the occasional earth worm or culls from a cichlid spawn or live bearer drop. And smaller fish, like tetras, young cichlids, live bearers etc get an occasional treat of frozen or live brine, maybe 1 or 2 times a month.
I am pretty strict when I feed, small portions twice a day 3 days a week (M,W, F) a small single potion 2 x a week (T, Sat) and go without food on Sun, and Thu. Of course, all this can change to trigger spawning, or recovering females who recently dropped or layed eggs. Or if they are fry, being raised away from there parents.

plaamoo wrote:I've been feeding this almost exclusively for dry food for a year or so. It's fresh & my fish love it!

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Since you are feeding this food, do you have an ingredient list for it?

The site is rather elusive as far as what is in their product...really you can make a lot of claims but if you don't "show" what your product is comprised of (especially in the food arena) I don't know that I would interested at all

cichlid-gal wrote:

plaamoo wrote:I've been feeding this almost exclusively for dry food for a year or so. It's fresh & my fish love it!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Since you are feeding this food, do you have an ingredient list for it?  

The site is rather elusive as far as what is in their product...really you can make a lot of claims but if you don't "show" what your product is comprised of (especially in the food arena) I don't know that I would interested at all

Elusive? Really?? I think he lays it out very clearly. Click on the order link to view individual products.

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plaamoo wrote:

cichlid-gal wrote:

plaamoo wrote:I've been feeding this almost exclusively for dry food for a year or so. It's fresh & my fish love it!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Since you are feeding this food, do you have an ingredient list for it?  

The site is rather elusive as far as what is in their product...really you can make a lot of claims but if you don't "show" what your product is comprised of (especially in the food arena) I don't know that I would interested at all

Elusive? Really?? :)I think he lays it out very clearly. Click on the order link to view individual products.

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I guess I'm looking for an ingredients list rather than just a description. Here's what I find on the order page for cichlid flakes

Ingredients: Very special formulation of my seafood-1 and seafood-2 categories followed by my greens category and then my vitamins category.

Min. Crude Protein 41% Min. Crude Fat 13% Max. Moisture 9% Max Ash 12% Max. Crude Fiber 4%

There is a statement on the ingredients page that says "I will list the main ingredient with each of my foods but will stop there. This is in part to the fact that I would rather not make it any easier for anyone to figure out the exact formulas. I will assure you, however, that after the main ingredient which I list for each food, the other ingredient categories (seafood-1, seafood-2, greens, and vitamins) will be listed in order of prevalence". I do not see the main ingredient listed on those flakes.

And Plaamoo, I'm not trying to run down this food, I just can't find what I'm looking for which is an ingredient list. I don't know all the ins and outs of propietary stuff or what you worry about as a producer of things so I can't address his concerns there only mine.

" I just can't find what I'm looking for which is an ingredient list"

Not seeing the forest for the trees?

This....
INGREDIENTS: Dried spirulina algae, fish meal,
oatmeal, krill, soybean flour, dried garlic, shrimp meal, dried kelp, squid liver meal, fish liver meal, dried yeast, wheat germ meal, salmon oil (ethoxyquin used as preservative), flaxseed oil, vitamins (cholecalciferol, biotin, d-calcium pantothenate, folic acid, inositol, niacin supplement, riboflavin-5-phosphate, calcium L-ascorbyl-2-monophosphate, vitamin A acetate, thiamine hydrochloride, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity)), lecithin, sodium citrate, minerals (manganous oxide, ferrous carbonate, zinc oxide, copper oxide, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate, calcium carbonate), yeast extract, fructooligosaccharide, beta-carotene.

Makes you feel better than this...?
I will tell you that the seafood-1 category, in alphabetical order, includes but is not limited to black cod, cod, halibut, herring, salmon, plus several others.
I will also tell you that the seafood-2 category, in alphabetical order, includes but is not limited to clams, krill, octopus, rockfish, several types of various fish eggs, shrimp, squid, plus several others.

The vitamin additive that I add in, as formulated by the Tropical Fish Nutritionalist, includes but is not limited to Vitamins A, B-12, D, B-1, B-2, B-6, C, E, Niacinamide, Calcium, Biotin, Folic Acid, Iron, Iodine, Zinc, Phosphorus, Magnesium, Copper, Manganese, Potassium, Choline, Inositol, Rutin, PABA, Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex, Betaine HCL, Hesperidin Complex, Desiccated Liver, L-Lysine HCL and d-alpha Tocopheryl Succinate

"Almost Natural Tropical Fish Food" does not contain lots of starches (another form of filler) as many other types of tropical fish foods do."
"Because the "Almost Natural Tropical Fish Foods" are processed immediately upon the arrival of the fresh human consumption grade food ingredients, it pretty much sticks together by itself"
"Think about the following for a minute. Which do you think has far more natural proteins - a freshly caught fish you just cooked and put on a dinner plate OR a fish that has been processed and turned into powder, had preservatives added, stored in dry storage on a shelf for months, was reprocessed with many starches and other ingredients, had more preservatives added, sat around for a few more months in dry storage and then put onto your dinner plate. Doesn't the second scenario just described sound delicious and healthy?? "

Those meals used in mass produced fish foods are typically by-catch-trash scraped from the decks of Asian fishing boats and not taken care of in the least, picking up god knows what along the way. Many if not most shrimp comes from Asian shrimp farms and are laden with antibiotics and pesticides.
I'm not pushing Ed's food. I do know high level breeders and fishkeepers that are very happy with his product. My picky fish snub their nose at that stale off the shelf mass produced stuff. They fight over this. You can feel and smell the difference yourself.

Anthony J. wrote:I too enjoyed the link, there is the major drawback that its very difficult to base a food in a bracket simply off of its ingredients list, as there are many factors to consider in the way the food itself is delivered, like a hard pellet vs a very crumbly one, or a waffer vs flake. But, the ingredients lists are quit handy, and all in one place.

Agreed. The ingredients and percentages give me a few new foods to try though, including one of the NLS ones though. After all, the best ingredients don't mean much if your fish won't touch the stuff or you can't afford it.

plaamoo wrote:

Not seeing the forest for the trees?


I'm not pushing Ed's food. I do know high level breeders and fishkeepers that are very happy with his product. My picky fish snub their nose at that stale off the shelf mass produced stuff. They fight over this. You can feel and smell the difference yourself.

No I'm not seeing the forest as there is nothing to see but a bunch of statements made by "Ed" about his food...there is nothing to back up what he is saying as he is not putting anything on his labels but generalizations.  It reminds me of many weight loss pills that promise the moon and have all this special stuff in them but when push comes to shove its not what you think it is and sometimes there is harmful stuff in them but because they have "lumped" ingredients together the harmful stuff is hidden.  

How are we to know based on what that food lists as ingredients what is really in it.  The page where Ed chats about what he puts in his food and where he sells his food and lists ingredients are two separate pages...and he doesn't even follow through with his promise to list the number one ingredient.  Plaamoo...someone can make a lot of claims about their stuff but until they put it out there in writing it is simply their word and because I do not know Ed his word has no meaning to me.  Now, your word, well, as I get to know you better it will either have meaning or not depending on how we handle ourselves.  I am not defensive about the foods I feed.  Tear them up if you so chose.  I'm looking to see if there is a really great food out there for our fishes.  That's my goal.  I know my foods have downfalls that's why I started this topic.  

I am glad that people are using the Natural Tropical Fish Food product and are happy but until I see what is in it in writing I will not even give that food a 2nd look.  I'm sorry if that bothers you...my choice just as it is yours to feed that food.

dwarfpike wrote:

Anthony J. wrote:I too enjoyed the link, there is the major drawback that its very difficult to base a food in a bracket simply off of its ingredients list, as there are many factors to consider in the way the food itself is delivered, like a hard pellet vs a very crumbly one, or a waffer vs flake. But, the ingredients lists are quit handy, and all in one place.

Agreed. The ingredients and percentages give me a few new foods to try though, including one of the NLS ones though. After all, the best ingredients don't mean much if your fish won't touch the stuff or you can't afford it.

Agreed, I will testify that some of my fish were very hesitant,  and wanted nothing to do with NLS when I first made the switch a few years ago,  particularly my T. Meeki. But, my children will munch on candy all day if I let them, and would have nothing to do with veggies if it was optional.

I didn't mean that as a shot at NLS btw. I know it has that reputation of fish not eating it, but I don't have a soft heart when it comes to switching fish off bad foods. Anyone who has tried to get wild caught pike cichlids onto prepared foods can't be. I just haven't tried NLS due to it's high protein levels, but that site gave me one with a lower percentage to look for now though so if I if I can track it down, I certainly want to try it out.  

I think most people who have issues getting fish to eat NLS might be due to using too large a pellet. NLS is pretty dense compared to other brands. If you get a NLS pellet that is comparable in size to what you had been using from another brand you may find that it is rejected. Go smaller and it usually is taken.

I have a large (13") Pearsei and Red Hook Silver Dollars (7") and they do fine with the 4.5mm floating, though they greedily take the 7.5mm ones but just end up making a huge mess of them grinding them down to try and eat.

Good point DMD. I always prefer smaller pellets anyway, but I do remember the first time I saw NLS in a LFS the size was the main reason I skipped on them. Way too huge for my dwarf cichlids, they didn't have the smaller 1mm size in the store at that particular time.

"I'm sorry if that bothers you"

Not at all. Please don't misunderstand me. Our brains just process info differently. All those "meals" are a smokescreen. You don't know what they really consist of. Ed's list of ingredients, along with highly respected recommendations were more than enough for me to give it a try.

Here's the wiki article on "fish meal"...some good reading here too. I'm learning a lot here...so all is good Plaamoo.

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The only negative remark I find with Hikari Massivor Pellets is it has synthetic vitamin K. I've used this product consistently with large predators. Since I've converted my tanks to planted housing smaller fish I still break off little bits of the pellet & feed my dwarf cichlids. They like it a lot! What do you guys think of this product? What I have read Massivor Pellets contain 10% more protein than NLS products.

plaamoo wrote:
I'm not pushing Ed's food. I do know high level breeders and fishkeepers that are very happy with his product. My picky fish snub their nose at that stale off the shelf mass produced stuff. They fight over this. You can feel and smell the difference yourself.

Actually I was quite intrigued by his arguments. I like the fact his product is made from human grade and not pet grade. I believe this would lower the amount of accepted preservatives used, if I understand correctly. A low starch content also is good. His pricing is not that bad, might consider ordering a small batch of pellets to try.

fishNAbowl wrote:The only negative remark I find with Hikari Massivor Pellets is it has synthetic vitamin K. I've used this product consistently with large predators. Since I've converted my tanks to planted housing smaller fish I still break off little bits of the pellet & feed my dwarf cichlids. They like it a lot! What do you guys think of this product? What I have read Massivor Pellets contain 10% more protein than NLS products.

This stuff generally gets good reviews. This used to be the only real choice for large predatory fish. Now NLS makes a good Mega Fish Formula to compete. My gripe with this product (Massivore) is how it makes the water stink.... why does it do that?

Right now I am using the Hikari Sinking Carnivore which I believe is just massivore but in small form. My bichirs love this stuff! But when they get big enough I will try the NLS Mega on them. cant stand the stinky water  

Hey just noticed this..... A 3mm floating by NLS. Its about time!  
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Anthony J. wrote:I probably don't need to share what I feed but will anyway, I feed exclusively New Life Spectrum. I feel it is the leader of the pack when it comes to fish nutrition, and there is so much information to back it up.

Can you provide some links? I have been searching the last few days can cant find anything but conjecture and opinions.

fishNAbowl wrote:The only negative remark I find with Hikari Massivor Pellets is it has synthetic vitamin K. I

Well I could be wrong but... a main ingredient is Seaweed. MK-4(Vitamin K) is usually found in plants with high photosynthesis. Seaweed is actually big in the health food industry just for that reason as well as Vitamin C
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At the moment I am feeding my SA cichlids a mix
Hikari Cichlid Gold
White Fish Meal, Wheat Flour, Wheat Germ Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Soybean Meal, Shrimp Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Carotene, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Choline Chloride, D-activated Animal Sterol, Folic Acid, Menadione, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Salt, Ferrous Chloride, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Aluminum Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate.

Crude Protein min. 40% Min. crude fat min. 4% Crude Fiber max. 4% Moisture max. 9% Max Ash 12%

Kens veggie flake(I make cubes out of it)
seaweed, spirulina, carrots, squash, spinach. Vegetable oils, soy meal, yeast, wheat flour, vitamin & mineral supplement. Asorbic acid (source of vitamin c). Natural and some artificial coloring. Dried bacillus subtilis fermentation product, dried bacillus licheniformis fermentation

Guaranteed analysis: crude protein 35.0% min., crude fat 7.0% min., crude fiber 7.0% max., moisture 8.0% max., all natural ingredients, except for some artificial coloring. No preservatives.

As well as Hikari Frozen Blood worm, Frozen tubifex worms, Frozen Krill

This is not including the occasional guppy, platy, or betta cull. As well as the occasional goldfish to keep the agression in my dovii

Cobalt is the best

I feed New Life Spectrum cichlid 1mm sinking pellets and Thera A large fish 3mm sinking pellets.  I buy the 5lb. buckets which last a very long time. Link to their site: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Occasionally I feed some frozen mysis or brine shrimp as well as a few veggies.  Plecos get nls and some canned french style green beans, usually Del Monte or whatever brand I can find on the shelf that is unsalted.

Chiisai wrote:

Anthony J. wrote:I probably don't need to share what I feed but will anyway, I feed exclusively New Life Spectrum. I feel it is the leader of the pack when it comes to fish nutrition, and there is so much information to back it up.

Can you provide some links? I have been searching the last few days can cant find anything but conjecture and opinions

I absolutely, but my lack of time restricts...... when I was first researching it, I had this issue too. And I can follow the same route again, and post my findings here, although it will probably take me a few days due to 12-14 hour work days. So I'm very busy when I get off with10 aquariums, and my family. I can however, tell you what I did. Go to MFK, find RD, and search his posts. Over the last many years, he has provided a plethora of information, typically cited, just as you saw from the hikari email exchange. This is the best I can do right now.

fishNAbowl wrote:The only negative remark I find with Hikari Massivor Pellets is it has synthetic vitamin K. I've used this product consistently with large predators. Since I've converted my tanks to planted housing smaller fish I still break off little bits of the pellet & feed my dwarf cichlids. They like it a lot! What do you guys think of this product? What I have read Massivor Pellets contain 10% more protein than NLS products.

FishNAbowl I have not had the need to feed large meat based products.  I do use the Hikari Sinking Massivore Discs for my Axolotls.  And like DMD shared the smell can be an issue but my axi's love them.  

Chiisai wrote:
At the moment I am feeding my SA cichlids a mix
Hikari Cichlid Gold
White Fish Meal, Wheat Flour, Wheat Germ Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Soybean Meal, Shrimp Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Carotene, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Choline Chloride, D-activated Animal Sterol, Folic Acid, Menadione, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Salt, Ferrous Chloride, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Aluminum Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate.

Crude Protein min. 40% Min. crude fat min. 4% Crude Fiber max. 4%  Moisture max. 9% Max Ash  12%

Kens veggie flake(I make cubes out of it)
seaweed, spirulina, carrots, squash, spinach. Vegetable oils, soy meal, yeast, wheat flour, vitamin & mineral supplement. Asorbic acid (source of vitamin c). Natural and some artificial coloring. Dried bacillus subtilis fermentation product, dried bacillus licheniformis fermentation

Guaranteed analysis: crude protein 35.0% min., crude fat 7.0% min., crude fiber 7.0% max., moisture 8.0% max., all natural ingredients, except for some artificial coloring. No preservatives.

As well as Hikari Frozen Blood worm, Frozen tubifex worms, Frozen Krill  

This is not including the occasional guppy, platy, or betta cull. As well as the occasional goldfish to keep the agression in my dovii

Chiisai the Ken's veggie flake ingredients look good enough to put on a plate...really.  I know a lot of folks feed Ken's and his foods seem to use earthworm in them alot.  Is there any information out there on using earthworm as a protein source for fish? I would assume that in the wild fish eat worms where and when available but it would interesting to see more information on this topic.

earthfish wrote:Cobalt is the best

Just for review purposes:
Cobalt Premium Cichlid Food Ingredients:

Salmon Fish Meal, Dried Yeast, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Shrimp Meal, Freeze Dried Plankton, Freeze Dried Krill, Dried Spirulina, Dried Kelp, Fish Oil, Lecithin, Dried Brine Shrimp, Egg Powder, Garlic Powder, Earthworm Powder, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin B1 Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Biotin, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of stabilized Vitamin C), Beta-Glucan, Spray Dried Egg, Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin E Supplement, D1 Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin, D-Biotin, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation Product, Methionine and Natural Coloring

Betty wrote:I feed New Life Spectrum cichlid 1mm sinking pellets and Thera A large fish 3mm sinking pellets.  I buy the 5lb. buckets which last a very long time. Link to their site: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Occasionally I feed some frozen mysis or brine shrimp as well as a few veggies.  Plecos get nls and some canned french style green beans, usually Del Monte or whatever brand I can find on the shelf that is unsalted.

Betty...I'm intrigued by the french style green beans as another veggie source.  Do you think it would be safe to add a few to my big cichlid tank once in a while...I have a lot of wood and such .. if pieces were to get stuck somewhere I would assume the pleco in the tank would find them and clean them up?

I would also like to add, that looking for the "best food" is often easier to do when you look at it from a process of eliminating the worst foods and there's several things that you can look for to do this.
For me some of the things I look for as a bad ingredient are first and for most,  corn, which have very little nutritional value, and in my understanding,  is the absolute most commonly used filler in any "cheaply,  or poorly made" food product. Another two I am not fond of are soy and yeast as these two are often used boost protein levels, and act as fillers, but this protein is not very digestable. Finally,  any land animal, no matter what part it is used. The biggest 3 for me are corn, land animals,  and soy. Just eliminating any food from the list of possibly "good food", and putting them into the "bad food" category will narrow out about 1/2-3/4 of marketed fish foods.
From there I look at the way the most desirable ingredients are labeled, trying to avoid the word "meal" after any of these ingredients,  especially if it is one of the top 5 ingredients. By doing this, we don't necessarily need to remove them from the current list, but perhaps put them in a medium, or "ok" category.
Finally, delivery. While a dense pellet is naturally going to be more nutrient rich, due to the fact that obviously more ingredients were put into each pellet,  and since we have eliminated 90+ percent of foods we have to look at this as a sign of lots of good ingredients crammed into each pellet. While flakes have I higher obsorption rate then pellets, I have seen dome company's trying to cut down on this.  For example, omega 1 flakes have many small granules on each flake.  These granules are denser then the "flaky" part of the flake, meaning more ingredients in each flake. Also, very light weight,  and course pellets are going to retain more water faster then a dense one. Which means the stomach of the fish will be more full,  with less nutrients,  as tank water isn't nutritious. The same can be said for gel foods, if we have 50% protein, but are mixing 1 part highly nutritional food,  to 4 parts water the nutritional value of the food must be cut in fourths, because of dilution. Best example I can give of this is if it is dinner time, and my children won't eat their peas, so I stick 2 peas into each spot in an ice tray, and pop out the desired amount of peas, lets say 20, my children's stomach will be full of water from eating 10 ice cubes, but they got the peas right? Well yes, but peas aren't the only thing on the menu, and how much more nutrients could we have fit in their stomachs, if we didn't have 10 cubes of water in there? What happens is the stomach is physically full, but its full of very little nutrition,  and a lot of water.

I hope this makes sense,  its my method for choosing the food I do. And, I'm pretty sure, that I have expressed all of this in an easy to understand,  yet logical and informative way.

Anthony, it makes sense to me.

Chiisai, if you'd like a small sample of nls, I can give you some to try and see how you and your fish like it.

Donna, most of my mbuna like the green beans, but I rarely feed it to them because it can be a real mess.  If you break it into small bite-sized pieces and feed very sparingly, maybe.  If you drop them in straight from the can (like I do for my plecos) they will grab and chase and rip it to pieces. Your plecos would probably find any leftovers, but a lot of it might end up in the filter.

Betty wrote:Anthony, it makes sense to me.

Chiisai, if you'd like a small sample of nls, I can give you some to try and see how you and your fish like it.

Sure if you like.

water is critical in the digestion and absorption of food.
especially true with proteins.
I do get the reasoning tho re: dilution
just a thought dillute prior to consumption or soon after either way you need the water to process.

just a thought

plaamoo wrote:" I just can't find what I'm looking for which is an ingredient list"

Not seeing the forest for the trees?

I will tell you that the seafood-1 category, in alphabetical order, includes but is not limited to black cod, cod, halibut, herring, salmon, plus several others.
I will also tell you that the seafood-2 category, in alphabetical order, includes but is not limited to clams, krill, octopus, rockfish, several types of various fish eggs, shrimp, squid, plus several others.

The vitamin additive that I add in, as formulated by the Tropical Fish Nutritionalist, includes but is not limited to Vitamins A, B-12, D, B-1, B-2, B-6, C, E, Niacinamide, Calcium, Biotin, Folic Acid, Iron, Iodine, Zinc, Phosphorus, Magnesium, Copper, Manganese, Potassium, Choline, Inositol, Rutin, PABA, Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex, Betaine HCL, Hesperidin Complex, Desiccated Liver, L-Lysine HCL and d-alpha Tocopheryl Succinate

My only issue with this ingredient list is that he uses the groups. This tells me that the food is not consitent in ingredients. ALthough there is definatley merit in food manufacturer that uses fresh food. I get the impression his food is made out of whatever he had access to that day. I am sure all of the food is nutritious but the lack of consistency is what might drive some folks away.

On a side note I was talking to someone I associate with who now is a Marine Biologist. Her thoughts on the whole fish food was this. "Just about any fish food you can buy is by far more nutritious then what the fish would recieve in the wild." She went on to tell me that in the wild many fish might go for days without finding anything to eat(mostly carnivours). Most fish foods that are half decent are de facto healtheir for the fish then its natural habitat. Thus why most Captive species look far superior in color and form then WC. I suspect this might not hold as true for veggie loving fish. But thought I would add that lil tidbit in. For the sake of full disclosure she also told me if I wanted the best for my fish.. take them back to south america  

Well, as true as some of that is,  specifically not eating for periods of time,  when a carnivorous fish does eat, because its a carnivore,  it gets matter from which that meal ate, sometimes other fish, shrimps, fruit, veggies, algae, microscopic organisms etc. Being at the top of the food chain means, you don't need to eat the health foods, your pray is all ready saturated in the vitamins from them. I recall a few years back, pretty sure it was Don Conkel, could be Rusty Wessel, I can't remember,  talking about the amount of vegetable matter in a carnivorous cichlids gut analysis. So, even if they only eat, lets say for the sake of naturalism,  1 species of live bearer they are found living with. Well, such an exclusive diet would cause deficiencies.  But, the live bearer has a very broad diet, from insects, to, algea, and all sorts of other foods. So the carnivores meal today, could be Xiphophurus Montezuma with a gut full of algae,  in two days, another ones might be full of mango.

also, in my experiance, w/c fishes lose colors when they transition to captive life, or the next generation may be without certain traits at all (Hemigrammus rodwayi) comes to mind. Because no matter how diverse the food we feed is, nothing can match the diversity, or specifications, that come from the habitat which the fish evolved within to become its species. Almost all fish have common ancestry.  Like cichlids to damsels. Have you ever seen clown fish display, lay eggs, defend nest etc? It's like watching bright orange an white cichlids. Each and every cichlid evolved ti fit into a niche within there system, and they did that by many years of breeding, to breed specimens must be strong and healthy (adiet, and exercise are key to health) or the act of spawning and courting alone could cause the parents to be too weak to defend the eggs and they would get eaten. The species would die off, almost all cichlids have population doubling time of 6-18 months according to the iucn lists I have seen. so I can't help but assume your friend either didn't think the answer to the question trough, or gave you a false answer.

Anthony J. wrote:also, in my experiance, w/c fishes lose colors when they transition to captive life, or the next generation may be without certain traits at all (Hemigrammus rodwayi) comes to mind. Because no matter how diverse the food we feed is, nothing can match the diversity, or specifications, that come from the habitat which the fish evolved within to become its species.

I think one element missing is real sunlight. An example that comes to mind, I remember seeing pictures of wild caught red devils for instance that have such deep dark red's that I have never seen in captive fish.

I respect your opinion Anthony but agree with my friend. Some fish might do better in captivity, but this is largely due to synthetic enviroment. You and I have fish tanks that are artificially better then nature. We quarintine new or sick fish, we have pumps and filters to keep up water quality and a horde of chemicals and test kits to keep water optimal. Keeping a fish healthy doesnt mean that its the best for them. It simply means we as the Human species has found a way to support life on a smaller, albeit artificial scale. You could be in a prison for the rest of your life in solitary confinement. You wouldn't be tempted to do drugs, drink, get in fights, or be exposed to very little if any illnesses. This doesnt mean iimprisonment is better for you. The coloration issue I suspect is in fact due to lighting like DMD suggests(Vitamin K, and VItamin D deficient).

 I could go on to say if you or I was bound to the confines of our homes for the rest of our lives that wouldnt be considered healthy would it? Keeping fish in glass acrylic container thats prolly 1/1000 of their naturally inclined territory. Now that is a bit of far stretch since fish dont have the cognative ability to understand their "imprisonment" but idea is the same.  

Regarding species dieing off from not being strong enough...

 That is natures way of ensuring strong and healthy bloodlines. If we in the hobby are breeding and maintaining weak specimens then we are not doing the breed any favors. The only exception to this is species who are endangered due to man made causes. As I feel personally we should seek to keep any endangered species from going extinct. This barring the idea the species would not be able to populate back in nature ever again(Natural habitat completely destroyed). Maintaining a species that can only be kept in captivity isnt really saving the species IMHO.

Anyways thats my though process... rebuttle is certainly welcomed!

Chiisai wrote:I respect your opinion Anthony but agree with my friend. Some fish might do better in captivity, but this is largely due to synthetic enviroment. You and I have fish tanks that are artificially better then nature. We quarintine new or sick fish, we have pumps and filters to keep up water quality and a horde of chemicals and test kits to keep water optimal. Keeping a fish healthy doesnt mean that its the best for them. It simply means we as the Human species has found a way to support life on a smaller, albeit artificial scale. You could be in a prison for the rest of your life in solitary confinement. You wouldn't be tempted to do drugs, drink, get in fights, or be exposed to very little if any illnesses. This doesnt mean iimprisonment is better for you. The coloration issue I suspect is in fact due to lighting like DMD suggests(Vitamin K, and VItamin D deficient).

 I could go on to say if you or I was bound to the confines of our homes for the rest of our lives that wouldnt be considered healthy would it? Keeping fish in glass acrylic container thats prolly 1/1000 of their naturally inclined territory. Now that is a bit of far stretch since fish dont have the cognative ability to understand their "imprisonment" but idea is the same.  

Regarding species dieing off from not being strong enough...

 That is natures way of ensuring strong and healthy bloodlines. If we in the hobby are breeding and maintaining weak specimens then we are not doing the breed any favors. The only exception to this is species who are endangered due to man made causes. As I feel personally we should seek to keep any endangered species from going extinct. This barring the idea the species would not be able to populate back in nature ever again(Natural habitat completely destroyed). Maintaining a species that can only be kept in captivity isnt really saving the species IMHO.

Anyways thats my though process... rebuttle is certainly welcomed!

The top two paragraphs, where do they fit in to any of this? I never said that it was better or healthier. In or out of captivity, I stated that there were examples to prove some fish have better coloration in the wild due to any number of factors. Then I posted an example, with the golden tetra.

In the next paragraphs I went on to explain that if, any grouping, family, or population of fish in the wild were to go through even the toughest of times, in reference to a limited diet, or specific needs of any of these "niche" fish, the survivors would be able to double the population in most cases, in between 6 and 18 months as per the iucn lists..


 "Just about any fish food you can buy is by far more nutritious then what the fish would recieve in the wild." 

This is where your friend is wrong, and this was the point I was arguing, as you will see from the heading of my argument, " as true as dome of that is".

If you are going to back this statement, and your friend is a marine biologist, I ask for any documentation supporting this theory. Any b at all, shouldn't be difficult for a marine biologist, or maybe a link, a report, any evidence that says this is accurate. Youbwill find very quickly a few things, 1st if there's no pictures, it didn't happen. And 2 ANY statement most have either plenty of logic and at minimum a decent arguable point, and/or scientific or "expert on the topic" reports, again with plenty of citations, data, and inarguable information or evidence to back it. So, I challenge your friend, or you or anyone to produce information supporting and back8ng the above quoted statement. I will repost


 "Just about any fish food you can buy is by far more nutritious then what the fish would recieve in the wild." 

This^^^

Chiisai, please reread my comments a few times so you can deliver a more suitable argument, I am not trying to sound like a jerk I promise, but your response tells me either you didn't read my posy, or for didn't understand it.

Anthony J. wrote:
Chiisai, please reread my comments a few times so you can deliver a more suitable argument, I am not trying to sound like a jerk I promise,  but your response tells me either you didn't read my posy, or for didn't understand it.

It made sense when I wrote it, but looking back over your post looks like I must have had something else on the mind. I will ask my friend if she has some studies she can give links to. BTW did you ever find that RD links? Been skimming through MFK for a few days now and cant find any food related topics from RD. Let alone food topics that have anything more then "my fish look better when I feed xxx." After reading through all these posts I am going to be halting my use of Kikari Bio Gold once I have used it all up. So far its a toss up for between Hikari Massivore and maybe breaking up the peices? Or trying the "Xtreme" brand I have been reading about on MFK. I am just looking for better ingredients in a fish food then NLS or most of Hikari foods offer. Also reading alot of reviews of fish "spitting out" NLS or not eating it at all. I am not an expert but my fish have favorites but I have never seen them spit out anything but "mini" pellets(because smaller pellets are much harder then larger ones I am told). I still dont like the "meals" not being "whole" but will have to settle until the market has more to offer.

Xtreme "PeeWee"
Krill Meal, Herring Meal, Green Pea, Fish Meal, Shrimp Meal, Squid Meal, Rice Meal, Spirulina blue-green algae, Brewers Dried Yeast, Paprika, Lecithin, Marigold Extract, Fish Oil, ,Salt, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, di-Alph Tocopheryl Acetate(Vitamin E Supplement), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Niacin, Caldium Pantothenate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex(source of Vitamin K activity), Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Iron Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Canthaxanthin, Astaxanthin, Beta Carotene

Protein: (min) 38.0%
Fat: (min) 5.0%
Fiber: (max) 4.5%
Moisture: (max) 10%

I use many different brands and the one thing that I can say is that NLS does use very high quality ingredients. As to the 'whole' being used before a meal really does not apply to the NLS because with krill and herring the whole animal is used. I would be more concerned with this in fish meals. This is a high quality product, my only reason for mixing is my own personal feeling of having a high vegetarian group of fish. Ive done the research and even fed NLS exclusive for a while but my group seems to do better with more plant based foods in their diet.

I want to start by saying I haven't read everyone else's thoughts, as they don't pertain to what I'm going to share( my experience) ....


So to update everyone, I ordered about $50 dollars worth of bulk southern delight this morning.   Reason being, I went to madness' house last night to pick up my new regani...., I have been to his place numerous times over the last year. His fish always look great and tanks are always impeccably clean. With that being said, his fish looked even nicer than normal .  I attribute this to his use of southern delight food.  Until my bulk food arrives, my fish will continue to eat the nls 6mm floating, the aqueon 3mm slow sinking , and frOzen krill.... I'm excited to add this new food to the mix as I have seen the results first hand, and the online research/ websites are impressive.

I have not seen madness fish in a while now.... if they look even better I guess I would be tempted to order some to try also. But I am bothered by the use of corn and chicken by products in this food. These are two items I feel should not be in the food. Many of the other ingredients I understand due to needing a binder and protein source. Let us know what you think of it when you start using it Lloyd.