Boeing's Future in WA

So, I have been reading all I can about the new machinists' union contract that was voted on (and turned down) last night, and I have realized something: there has been plenty of reporting of opinions from workers, union leaders, politicians and industry experts, but I have yet to see any reports of how the average (non-Boeing) Washingtonian feels about this issue. After all, the possible loss of a big industrial firm like Boeing that has been in Washington for decades affects nearly everyone in the state, not just those who voted down the contract.

News sources mention in passing that it could mean tens of thousands of Boeing jobs lost in WA, but what about all of the auxiliary jobs which are supported by Boeing? Aerospace manufacturing, transportation companies and a multitude of other businesses in the area are propped up by Boeing's investment and continued spending in the area, and I am worried about what the (possible- it's not decided yet) loss of a major future source of jobs could mean for the entire region.

Then there is the message that this tussle sends to other industries about investing in our state; workers in Washington will not cooperate to reach a compromise which fits with the changing economic conditions of today.

The reality is, for anyone but the members of the IMA Local 751, the contract that they were offered would be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I just can't wrap my head around how distorted the views of those who voted this down have become; they have been so spoiled by the outrageous gains they have won via their power to strike and hold Boeing hostage in the past that they can't realize that although they might have taken a small hit to their pocketbook with this contract, they would still have been better off than most Americans. While the new contract would have guaranteed maybe 85% of the pay and benefits of the old one for years to come, they would rather risk getting 100% of nothing.

And I shouldn't have to point out that 100% of nothing is nothing, but I will anyway.

Then there is the flip-side; Boeing is holding its workers hostage because it has the power at this point in time, and it is an evil corporate greed-machine which will do anything to increase its profits. It has pressured the state legislature into giving the biggest tax incentive package in American history (not just in Washington, in the whole nation, although we already hold the 3rd place spot, also given to Boeing).

I can certainly see how the union members felt wronged by this contract, feeling railroaded into giving away all that they have fought for in the past.

The thing is, though, as long as I can remember watching or listening to the news I have been hearing about the Boeing Machinists going on strike to force Boeing into giving more benefits or more pay. In the past they were able to do this because they held the power; they could strike and shut Boeing's operations in the state down indefinitely, so Boeing had to cater to their whims.

Keeping this in mind, I can hardly blame Boeing for playing hardball when it was their turn to pitch. For years Boeing management has probably felt railroaded in the same way that the union members now feel, so it's only fair that they are using their current influence and power to say, "if you want to continue to work for us, you are going to need to be competitive." And it seems that the machinists' union isn't willing to be competitive, so Boeing will (understandably) start looking for an area where workers are willing to compromise.

I don't know how to feel about this. On one hand, Boeing is becoming simply another lowest-cost/highest-margin corporation instead of a company which supports the region in which they operate, and I hate them for that. On the other, I see the machinists' union as selfish and short-sighted for rejecting a contract which clearly would have benefited our region, and I kind of hate them for that as well.

All in all, I am very glad that I don't work for Boeing right now. It is probably a stressful place today.


Ok, so now that I have gone on a way-too-long rant, how do you all see this issue? Obviously my rant is based mainly on my personal opinion, but I haven't had a chance to hear the opinions of others on the outside of the deal, and I would be really interested to do so.


(image probably related)

All I can say is if Boeing leaves, Washington becomes a ghost town, and everything around it, or associated with it will close down. Its everything, sandwich shops, stores, everything.

Being a union worker myself in the electrical union, and being a part of management also in the electrical trade, I understand a lot of the issues on both sides. In the electrical union it was always the workers trying to get when getting wasn't possible, and the employers not wanting to give when the giving was plentiful. They continue to fight and believe that one is out to screw the other.

Then you have the pipe fitters union the sheet metal union and the iron workers union. Both the employees and the employers work cohesively together to maintain the strength of the union and keep all involved happy.

With this said, all of those trades and the electricians use to be comparable in pay and benefits. Because of the greedy nature in the electrical union workers average $40/hr while pipe fitters, plumbers iron workers are up around $60/hr, and why their unions are very strong.

What I am getting at is kinda what you touched on. GREED, on both sides. The workers have a cushy job and the company feels they are getting lazy and they aren't getting the production they use to get. But who really knows the true reason.

God only knows how much this wonderful state of ours (staying away from my views), continues to increase taxes and fees on Boeing as a whole, which in turn effects the bottom line.

I dont blame them for leaving if that were to happen, and I think it would be more because of the Gov and less because the employees were greedy.

I would hate to see them leave.

Tough subject, all I know is that our fishy hobby is very much affected by this. A lot of us depend on those jobs, even in very complicated ways. For example, many of us are tied to home prices, and a Boeing departure would crash home prices as not only Boeing employees, but all the related employees and companies that are there to support them have to move away to find jobs elsewhere. And as that happens, I worry about where we go as fish keepers. I can imagine many of us may not be able to continue keeping fish the same way, or may suddenly have to move and deal with all the consequences of that move. That said, I don't know how this affects existing contract and what actual percentage of the population will be affected. I'm thinking it is time to hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Madness wrote:I dont blame them for leaving if that were to happen, and I think it would be more because of the Gov and less because the employees were greedy.  

Actually, Inslee is trying to give Boeing tax breaks, while raising the gas tax by ten cents so that all of us get to pay for that.

The reality of the situation is the cost of living and doing business in the greater Seattle area is damn high compared with many other areas in the country where manufacturing could take place. It would be foolish for Boeing to not find an excuse to start looking elsewhere for its manufacturing needs.

Hmm, I figure it will be a compromise between all 3 parties involved. Time will pass, the state of Washington will cut so many taXes back for Boeing that it will compensate for what the labor unions / workers are asking. Boeing will "compromise" with the workers because they really won't be loosing much because those who pay taXes will be compensating for those corporate loses.  So in the end it will be the taX payer compensating for the wages of Boeing employees. But as long as Cooperate and individual politicians are getting rich, who cares?  

Or, I could just be insane.

Flyfalcons wrote:
The reality of the situation is the cost of living and doing business in the greater Seattle area is damn high compared with many other areas in the country where manufacturing could take place.  It would be foolish for Boeing to not find an excuse to start looking elsewhere for its manufacturing needs.

This is a very good point as well. Cost of living here is nuts. Now peeps want $15 an hour in entry level jobs. Can you imagine what that would do to the economy (will save that for another thread)? But still, no matter where they go people will want " more more more " the economy is hurting, stocks are low, Corps are cutting corners where ever they can. The bottom line is the Gov will hike the taXpayers taXes & slash Boeings taXes all to comp Boeing. So, Boeing employees are like those welfare recipients that are scamming the system & the paying taXpayers are footing the bill.

Boeing employees make bank.  A pension? What's that?! There are so few Corps now that offer pensions. Only grandfather companies started in or before the 50's and the Government have those. Buck up, take the 401, your $30-$50hr in this piss poor Eco is well enough to get by for now.

My (admittedly limited) experience working for a union for 2 summers putting mirrors on trucks while I was going to school left a rather sour taste in my mouth.  I had to pay to be a part of the union, of course, and my reward for those dues was the union getting in the way of me doing my job to the best of my ability.  What if I was almost done with a cab and the lunch bell rang?  Too bad; I had to stop instantly or get lectured by the shop steward.  Say I saw a couple more involved cabs up the up the line from me and I wanted to get an early start on setup in the morning before start bell; too bad.

There are few things I hate more in life than people standing between me and doing my job right.  The dude does not abide that kind of crap.

My dad, a supervisor at the same place I worked for a couple of summers, lost his job a few years short of retirement because it just didn't make sense to keep the union shop open when housing bubble popped and no one was buying trucks anymore.  The non-union shop (same corporation, different state) kept going of course.

I think the world is changing and that a living wage with no degree is getting harder to find.  I think these union folks are extremely bad at math.  I also think they're being manipulated by union leadership on a no-win power trip at the expense of the workers.

Washington will live on without Boeing, but I also don't think we've seen the last of them.

Madness,
What local are U with? 76? I was a member of 191 for a short time in the summer of 2006 when the bubble bursted and was treated like shhhht while there, and no one was there to watch my back. What happend to brother/sister hood?
I have been non-union most if not all of my electrical career and now have left the trade altogether 4 years ago.
I was hired on to Boeing in January and laid off in April. I was an Aircraft electrician on the 777 project for a lousey $15.00 per hour (I left as a commercial electrician @ 26.00 per hr.) but wish I were still there just to say "NO" to this >blackmale< of an offer they put in front of all machinsts in the puget sound.
The Machinists union IAM local 751 stewards and president left THIS vote to the people to decide for themselves and the local area what's right. These men and women have worked their way up the ladder for this,, NOT. It was a segragated vote as well (young versus old) The young kids just wanted that 10 grand that was danged in front of their blind little faces for some new 18" pimp-my-ride wheels and a new sub woofer too! The young are short sigthed and will learn from the veteran members of the powerful situation they face that there's power in numbers! Boeings looking pretty bad right now too.
Unions are pretty weak and this is one of the strongest in the nation right along side the Teachers Unions nation wide. The younger generation just does not seem to be able to see beyond tomarrow and were about to vote their future pensions/benefits away for good! and take that cash bonus payoff instead. If you do the math it added up to 5.7billion in payoffs!  
If they can afford to dish out cash like this than they can afford to keep doing business here in Washington as well. Do you all think there going to abandon billions of dollars in buildings they invested in just to relocate somewhere else??? I think not. Who would lease these giant spaces out if Boeing left the area and took all the industial jobs awayl.....
Boeing has toyed with the machineist union for decades and is not about leave tommarrow
This contract extention was pure coparate BLACKMALE at its worst!
There are other machinist in local 751 besides boeing workers and work as REAL machine shop machinist! The starting pay for most jobs is not what people seem to think...
Its real hard to live on $12.00 per hour as my brother worked in Renton on the 737 max project in the "final wing assembly" at this starting wage 4.5 years ago. The current contract allows .50 raises every 6 mos. with cost of living raises(C.O.L.A.) 2 times per year @ .02 to .10 cents per contract agreement. Medical, union dues, dental are factored out of your paycheck each month as well so that $15.00 per hour I was making turned into just 11.40 per hour!!!

*Blackmail

Race has nothing to do with his topic, lol!

I work for boeing, I am 751, I voted yes despite it being total crap in order to keep my job. time will tell. I can tell you this, the only reason I work for boeing is so I can afford to support my family. I was the last employee left, a journeyman plumber by trade, at my parents plumbing business. I had to do what I had to do to keep my family afloat.

its not my fault I receive bennies, but there is ALOT of unappreciative workers there...

Madness wrote:Then you have the pipe fitters union the sheet metal union and the iron workers union.  Both the employees and the employers work cohesively together to maintain the strength of the union and keep all involved happy.  

This. I wish this was how unions operated more often, but in today's America it seems like it's becoming more and more common for unions and their employers to despise and try to screw each other over (not that this didn't happen in the past, I'm sure I'm just more aware of it now). Throughout this whole ordeal union members were very vocal about how they thought Boeing was trying to screw them over, and now they are calling for their president to step down because he "allowed" the vote to happen.... I don't understand what else he should have done, just say, "screw you Boeing, go somewhere else"? That's smart...

Madness wrote: I dont blame them for leaving if that were to happen, and I think it would be more because of the Gov and less because the employees were greedy.  

I think the state government has been more than accommodating this time around, with the huge tax breaks they have passed specifically to keep this contract in-state. Now that the contract was voted down, the state legislature is scrambling again to try to get Boeing to stay in the state, so I hear. I tell you what Boeing, if you're listening, I will gladly work for half the pay and benefits of your union members if you decide to stay in Washington! It will still be an improvement over my (and many other 20-somethings') current situation.

so you wanna work for $10 an hour? not everybody is making bank, it all takes time...

fishNAbowl wrote:
Boeing employees make bank.  A pension? What's that?! There are so few Corps now that offer pensions. Only grandfather companies started in or before the 50's and the Government have those. Buck up, take the 401, your $30-$50hr in this piss poor Eco is well enough to get by for now.

I completely agree, and you make a very good point about taxpayers footing the bill for all this. I was thinking more in terms of the direct influence on the economy that thousands of jobs have, and I never thought about the fact that all this bickering between the union and the company will probably end up costing everyone in the state a little bit, if Boeing stays. Thanks for pointing this out- now I am even more bitter about this whole thing

Seriously though, that's the point I keep coming back to.... if pretty much anyone else were in these union members' shoes they would have voted "yes" without thinking twice. It offers great pay, great benefits, and maybe not such a great place to work, but they have worked themselves up into such a frenzy over the fact that they have to sacrifice a small portion of their benefits that I don't think they see the bigger picture. I have been listening to one member spout on about how it was all about the "dirty deal," and then when asked what happens now, all he can muster is something along the lines of, "We build planes, that's what we do. We will keep building planes..." Well, what if there are no planes to build? Then what?

My favorite part is how many union members were convinced that Boeing was bluffing when the company said it will look elsewhere if the contract here is rejected: "Many union members opposed to the contract saw the company's threat to look outside Puget Sound as a bluff, but now 'nobody here knows what's going to happen,' said Jim Levitt, a 34-year machinist." I guess you sure called their bluff!

Here is what Boeing has to say about it: http://www.komonews.com/news/boeing/Boeing--231938881.html

Bye bye, 777x!

Livebearer wrote:Madness,
What local are U with? 76? I was a member of 191 for a short time in the summer of 2006 when the bubble bursted and was treated like shhhht while there, and no one was there to watch my back. What happend to brother/sister hood?
I have been non-union most if not all of my electrical career and now have left the trade altogether 4 years ago.
I was hired on to Boeing in January and laid off in April. I was an Aircraft electrician on the 777 project for a lousey $15.00 per hour (I left as a commercial electrician @ 26.00 per hr.) but wish I were still there just to say "NO" to this >blackmale< of an offer they put in front of all machinsts in the puget sound.
The Machinists union IAM local 751 stewards and president left THIS vote to the people to decide for themselves and the local area what's right. These men and women have worked their way up the ladder for this,, NOT. It was a segragated vote as well (young versus old) The young kids just wanted that 10 grand that was danged in front of their blind little faces for some new 18" pimp-my-ride wheels and a new sub woofer too! The young are short sigthed and will learn from the veteran members of the powerful situation they face that there's power in numbers! Boeings looking pretty bad right now too.
Unions are pretty weak and this is one of the strongest in the nation right along side the Teachers Unions nation wide. The younger generation just does not seem to be able to see beyond tomarrow and were about to vote their future pensions/benefits away for good! and take that cash bonus payoff instead. If you do the math it added up to 5.7billion in payoffs!  
If they can afford to dish out cash like this than they can afford to keep doing business here in Washington as well. Do you all think there going to abandon billions of dollars in buildings they invested in just to relocate somewhere else??? I think not. Who would lease these giant spaces out if Boeing left the area and took all the industial jobs awayl.....
Boeing has toyed with the machineist union for decades and is not about leave tommarrow
This contract extention was pure coparate BLACKMALE at its worst!
There are other machinist in local 751 besides boeing workers and work as REAL machine shop machinist! The starting pay for most jobs is not what people seem to think...
Its real hard to live on $12.00 per hour as my brother worked in Renton on the 737 max project in the "final wing assembly" at this starting wage 4.5 years ago. The current contract allows .50 raises every 6 mos. with cost of living raises(C.O.L.A.) 2 times per year @ .02 to .10 cents per contract agreement. Medical, union dues, dental are factored out of your paycheck each month as well so that $15.00 per hour I was making turned into just 11.40 per hour!!!

My point to my last post was like Mopar stated, if both members and employers could learn to work cohesively it works best for all, but once there is one trying to screw the other, look out.  I mean its basic common sense.  

I worked non-union for 8 years then went union in 95', Local 46'.  I agree with you to some extent, I have seen my share of worthless electricians that are just on board to ride what good the union has to offer and they abuse it every step of the way.  And its these individuals that are first to get laid off and the first to cry and whine when, "the economy is down there is no work and they still want a $10 raise over 3 years."  Unfortunately for 46 I would say a good half of them are this way and what I call hall trash.  

I worked for 46 until my back surgery in 2009, when I was ready to return there was no building going on, so I went to Boeing also.  Not sure why you make so little as an electrician at Boeing, I was making $42/hr until I was forced to quit for good in 2011 due to an emergency back surgery, which forced me to retire.  

Bottom line is greed on both sides, and what happens when people get comfortable?  They get lazy.  When I was at Boeing I had several people tell me to slow down and that I was making them look bad.  Seriously?  I think Boeing needs to clean house of the lazy dead weight, and get people in there that will appreciate what they have.  Dont get me wrong, as the company grows and gets rich, so should the employees get raises.

As for the kids coming in, you are correct in saying that they are in the now and not looking at the future, but they are also working circles around the lazy because they are eager to kick some butt.  Not all Boeing employees are lazy, but I have seen several that are.  

dmopar74 wrote:I work for boeing, I am 751, I voted yes despite it being total crap in order to keep my job. time will tell. I can tell you this, the only reason I work for boeing is so I can afford to support my family. I was the last employee left, a journeyman plumber by trade, at my parents plumbing business. I had to do what I had to do to keep my family afloat.

its not my fault I receive bennies, but there is ALOT of unappreciative workers there...

I agree with you completely.

Shopping around is part of the company playbook. Nothing is set in stone until construction begins on the 777X in whatever city the manufacturing plant happens to be, which could still be Seattle. Multiple bargaining cycles at my previous places of employment have borne that out.

Livebearer wrote:Madness,
The Machinists union IAM local 751 stewards and president left THIS vote to the people to decide for themselves and the local area what's right. These men and women have worked their way up the ladder for this,, NOT. It was a segragated vote as well (young versus old) The young kids just wanted that 10 grand that was danged in front of their blind little faces for some new 18" pimp-my-ride wheels and a new sub woofer too! The young are short sigthed and will learn from the veteran members of the powerful situation they face that there's power in numbers! Boeings looking pretty bad right now too.

Ok, so.... if you claim the younger generation can't see past the $10,000, I would argue that the older generation is equally short-sighted and perhaps more selfish, since they seem unable to see past their own pensions to understand what this no vote would mean for the future workers in this state after the older generation is comfortably retired. In years to come, while the older folks will be kicking back on their fat pensions, the younger workers will be out off a job because of this vote.

The other thing is, the machinists' union has repeatedly blackmailed Boeing in the past via their power to strike, so how can you blame Boeing for doing the same thing when they have the upper hand?

Also, if you want to be taken seriously, you probably shouldn't openly discuss your opinion that young people are all stupid. I am a young person, and I can see past "some new 18" pimp-my-ride wheels" (in fact, I have never replaced my car's wheels) to the fact that Boeing leaving this state will be a bad thing. What's short-sighted to me is rejecting a contract which would secure jobs for decades to come because you don't want to pay a bit more for health insurance.

The truth is, as others have stated, that the economy is different now than it was 20 years ago. Union members cannot expect that they can hold onto all of the (in my personal opinion) over-the-top benefits that they have wrenched from Boeing's grip when the rest of the country is struggling to even find work.

edit: also

livebearer wrote:If they can afford to dish out cash like this than they can afford to keep doing business here in Washington as well. Do you all think there going to abandon billions of dollars in buildings they invested in just to relocate somewhere else??? I think not. Who would lease these giant spaces out if Boeing left the area and took all the industial jobs awayl.....

Who says that they have to lease them out? Boeing is big enough that it could simply clear out and tear down when the current contracts expire. They also don't really pay any property taxes, so other than actually maintaining the facilities, there is little cost to simply keeping them there for future projects.

dmopar74 wrote:so you wanna work for $10 an hour? not everybody is making bank, it all takes time...

If you must know, I make $11.50 per hour at my current job, which won't be offering huge raises anytime soon, so yes, I would work for $10/hour if it was somewhere which offered great benefits and opportunities for advancement, and where I could take pride in my work. This whole issue has put me off Boeing and all unions, though, so that won't happen unless Washington becomes a right-to-work state. Like Madness said, I could not stand paying dues to a place who purports to help me, only to have them get in the way of my work. It sounds like hell.

Also, a lot of people in this state are making less than $10/hour, and even less than minimum wage, just to get by. $10/hour is not that low. I don't think many people realize how poor some people are, even in one of the better states in the country.

Hey guys, this thread is bringing up some interesting points, but please be mindful of not judging other's opinions without fully understanding them. I don't want to shut down a good discussion because it turned into a food fight. Let's focus on bringing new useful information, or better yet go start more fish related threads.

See the problem is not that unionized workers make too much, it's that everybody should be making a better wage. I've felt my whole life that we as a society work to much/ too hard for too little only to have it consume us.

MRTom wrote:Hey guys, this thread is bringing up some interesting points, but please be mindful of not judging other's opinions without fully understanding them. I don't want to shut down a good discussion because it turned into a food fight. Let's focus on bringing new useful information, or better yet go start more fish related threads.

Part of a good debate is exactly what is happening on this thread, of which I have been involved with and monitoring and seeing that there are no issues. Judging opinions is what makes a strong argument at times, and speaking your experiences adds to or helps shape some of those opinions. This thread will not get shut down until it gets out of hand, and it is a long ways from that point. Let the members debate, argue whatever, once it gets personal then its time to step in. Now is not that time.

Just my 2 cents as a mod.

If you're getting paid less than you think you should be - why not go work elsewhere? Or learn a new trade? Or open a business?

The only real path to financial independence is to not be a wage slave, like most of us are (myself included). Yeah, it's hard work, but should life be easy for everyone? Who's going to pay for that easy life?

I never said I was getting paid less than I think I should be... I am actually pretty happy with my new job, it's very easy aside from dealing with difficult customers. I was just pointing out that for a large number (the majority) of people in this nation $10/hour is not that low, and would be an improvement for many.

Not everyone has the means to just go work elsewhere, learn a new trade, or open a business. These all require certain bits of knowledge and specific skills, or you can know someone (which I hear does happen a lot at the Lazy B). The world is never seen as fair to anyone, but I think that these union members should really open their eyes and try to see (I know it's hard) that they are currently in an extremely good position compared to a lot of us, and could've secured that for future workers as well. It really is insulting that 67% of those people just said "screw you," to an opportunity that's better than many of us will ever have offered to us. Now we have the possibility that this vote will negatively affect not only their own future, but the future of this state.

Of course, there are an equal number of reasons to blame Boeing for this, but in all honesty they did more than they were obligated to do in order to please the union. They could have just gone forward without even offering a contract on this project in WA. I wouldn't blame them, considering the way Boeing and the union have gotten along in the past. If I was Boeing and looking at the bottom line, I would have been looking for a right-to-work state and moved out of WA long before now. I think for a big corporation, Boeing has been fairly nice to workers who apparently despise their employer.

LuminousAphid wrote:I never said I was getting paid less than I think I should be... I am actually pretty happy with my new job, it's very easy aside from dealing with difficult customers. I was just pointing out that for a large number (the majority) of people in this nation $10/hour is not that low, and would be an improvement for many.

My reply was directed to dmopar74 and the proverbial "you", not you specifically.  I agreed with your post, strangely enough.

Not everyone has the means to just go work elsewhere, learn a new trade, or open a business. These all require certain bits of knowledge and specific skills, or you can know someone (which I hear does happen a lot at the Lazy B).

Why not?  At what point do we become incapable of improving ourselves?

Not everyone has the means to just go work elsewhere, learn a new trade, or open a business. These all require certain bits of knowledge and specific skills, or you can know someone (which I hear does happen a lot at the Lazy B).

pbmax wrote:Why not?  At what point do we become incapable of improving ourselves?

I am doing this at 44.  Went back to school to learn something new, and to do something that allows me to work and not accelerate the damage in my lower back.  It is a scary thought, but also an exciting adventure.  Getting out of the ups and downs a the BS of the manual labor world, and into the world of computers and health care.  I am excited about the change.

pbmax wrote:Why not?  At what point do we become incapable of improving ourselves?

Often times learning a new trade or improving takes money, which is sorely lacking if you don't already have a decent job. It becomes a kind of vicious circle. Ie Can't get a better job without more education, can't get an education without money from a better job. Especially now that some of the lower paying jobs have cut out offering insurance to save money, meaning we have to pay more for that now as well.

Madness wrote:

Not everyone has the means to just go work elsewhere, learn a new trade, or open a business. These all require certain bits of knowledge and specific skills, or you can know someone (which I hear does happen a lot at the Lazy B).

pbmax wrote:Why not?  At what point do we become incapable of improving ourselves?

I am doing this at 44.  Went back to school to learn something new, and to do something that allows me to work and not accelerate the damage in my lower back.  It is a scary thought, but also an exciting adventure.  Getting out of the ups and downs a the BS of the manual labor world, and into the world of computers and health care.  I am excited about the change.

And that's my point exactly. Shame on us if we're not willing to work hard to adapt to changing circumstances in life and / or to improve our situations to a point that we're content with.

dwarfpike wrote:

pbmax wrote:Why not?  At what point do we become incapable of improving ourselves?

Often times learning a new trade or improving takes money, which is sorely lacking if you don't already have a decent job. It becomes a kind of vicious circle. Ie Can't get a better job without more education, can't get an education without money from a better job. Especially now that some of the lower paying jobs have cut out offering insurance to save money, meaning we have to pay more for that now as well.

Undoubtedly.  But where there is a will, there's a way.  It's obviously more difficult for some folks to do this than others, but in the end you can work hard to make yourself happy, or punt and let it consume you.

My ex paid her way through engineering school and worked her butt off the whole way through. No one helped her - she did it all herself.

dwarfpike wrote:

pbmax wrote:Why not?  At what point do we become incapable of improving ourselves?

Often times learning a new trade or improving takes money, which is sorely lacking if you don't already have a decent job. It becomes a kind of vicious circle. Ie Can't get a better job without more education, can't get an education without money from a better job. Especially now that some of the lower paying jobs have cut out offering insurance to save money, meaning we have to pay more for that now as well.

I agree with you. These past 2 years have been scary. Having to get a loan mod on the house, and really cutting back on my hobbies and other expenses. If one wants to improve themselves, there are many ways to do so. School at night while working during the day will work, and there are thousands of grants and scholarships offered to individuals that want to do just this. So the options and opportunities are out there.

I use to think like you until I was forced to go back to school. I did not realize that there are several options available. Now I know better.

pbmax wrote:Undoubtedly.  But where there is a will, there's a way.  It's obviously more difficult for some folks to do this than others, but in the end you can work hard to make yourself happy, or punt and let it consume you.

My ex paid her way through engineering school and worked her butt off the whole way through.  No one helped her - she did it all herself.

Or you just accept it and not let it get to you, hanging on until you get the chance to do so. I'm in a really tough spot, but don't complain about it. That serves no purpose. Actually my friends and family often comment on the fact I'm not bitter about things. All that will do is stress me out and make things 100x harder. Some people think they deserve the top right out of the gate, I'm more than happy to work my way up from the bottom. Maybe it's a generational thing.

Madness wrote:I agree with you.  These past 2 years have been scary.  Having to get a loan mod on the house, and really cutting back on my hobbies and other expenses.  If one wants to improve themselves, there are many ways to do so.  School at night while working during the day will work, and there are thousands of grants and scholarships offered to individuals that want to do just this.  So the options and opportunities are out there.  

I use to think like you until I was forced to go back to school.  I did not realize that there are several options available.  Now I know better.

Sadly, I still owe on my abortive college career, so am unable to get loans, scholarships, grants, ect. That makes things 1000x times harder. But not impossible. I just try to take it stages. Get a job. Save up for CC online night classes. Get a better job, ect. As I said above, feeling sorry for yourself and whining about doesn't improve things, it just makes it worse. I could go on state disability, but I'm just not built that way. I rather work even if it's for $10 an hour than take money that is better used on schools, ect.

dwarfpike wrote:

pbmax wrote:Undoubtedly.  But where there is a will, there's a way.  It's obviously more difficult for some folks to do this than others, but in the end you can work hard to make yourself happy, or punt and let it consume you.

My ex paid her way through engineering school and worked her butt off the whole way through.  No one helped her - she did it all herself.

Or you just accept it and not let it get to you, hanging on until you get the chance to do so. I'm in a really tough spot, but don't complain about it. That serves no purpose. Actually my friends and family often comment on the fact I'm not bitter about things. All that will do is stress me out and make things 100x harder. Some people think they deserve the top right out of the gate, I'm more than happy to work my way up from the bottom. Maybe it's a generational thing.

Madness wrote:I agree with you.  These past 2 years have been scary.  Having to get a loan mod on the house, and really cutting back on my hobbies and other expenses.  If one wants to improve themselves, there are many ways to do so.  School at night while working during the day will work, and there are thousands of grants and scholarships offered to individuals that want to do just this.  So the options and opportunities are out there.  

I use to think like you until I was forced to go back to school.  I did not realize that there are several options available.  Now I know better.

Sadly, I still owe on my abortive college career, so am unable to get loans, scholarships, grants, ect. That makes things 1000x times harder. But not impossible. I just try to take it stages. Get a job. Save up for CC online night classes. Get a better job, ect. As I said above, feeling sorry for yourself and whining about doesn't improve things, it just makes it worse. I could go on state disability, but I'm just not built that way. I rather work even if it's for $10 an hour than take money that is better used on schools, ect.

I am not sure of your age, but even at 44 my mentality is to start where ever I start and bust my arse to be the best at what I do.  

And the main reason for me going back to school to do something else, is also because I dont want to live off of the state, which with my back, I have every right to do so.  

Basically it all boils down to greed on all parties involved.  Also, a lot of the people on this planet dont like change and shut off there switch when certain things are said.  No offense to the woman, but a lot of woman are based on emotion, and one word will shut them down and they wont hear a thing after that.  The same concept can be said for the employees of Boeing.  You want to take what?  Switch gets flipped and all reasoning disappears.  They are now in a rage that wont allow them to think logically, or see anything that is common sense.

That's always been my mentality as well Madness. In fact, my friend says about my last job 'your work ethic was too high for that place.'

I hate change, but have actually changed careers quite a few times. I do like learning new things, and if one avenue closes I certainly will explore others, even if I don't like the change that comes with it.

The thing outsiders see about union jobs is, for the most part, they are already getting great pay (compared to nonunion jobs) and have great benefits (again compared to most jobs) and then they threaten to strike. I know there is much more going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, but someone that is having a hard time scoring a $10 an hour job with no benefits is going to look at them and say "wtf???"

Has anyone been on the Boeing tour in Everett and seen what they are doing? It is like this, Boeing machinists are specialists. It isn't as if Boeing can't afford to give a good deal to its workers.

Boeing earns $3.9 billion 2012 net profit
http://atwonline.com/operations/boeing-earns-39-billion-2012-net-profit


Boeing opened a factory in South Carolina which is a 'right to work' state so there is no Union representation and they get paid a lot less. (There are all sorts of stats about right to work states having lower standards of living.) They sent the Dreamliner there to be built. The production schedule fell way behind and they had to bring some of the Dreamliner manufacture to Everett ANYWAY! People don't become Journeymen/women in the Union without earning it.

I support the Union's demands.

"This is how the middle class dies, not with a bang, but a forced squeeze. After a global corporation posts record profits, it asks the state that has long nurtured its growth for the nation’s biggest single tax break, and then tells the people who make its products that their pension plan will be frozen, their benefits slashed, their pay raises meager. Take it or we leave. And everyone caves."

Under My Thumb
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/15/opinion/egan-under-my-thumb.html

hyp3rcrav3 wrote:Has anyone been on the Boeing tour in Everett and seen what they are doing? It is like this, Boeing machinists are specialists. It isn't as if Boeing can't afford to give a good deal to its workers.

Boeing earns $3.9 billion 2012 net profit
http://atwonline.com/operations/boeing-earns-39-billion-2012-net-profit


Boeing opened a factory in South Carolina which is a 'right to work' state so there is no Union representation and they get paid a lot less. (There are all sorts of stats about right to work states having lower standards of living.) They sent the Dreamliner there to be built. The production schedule fell way behind and they had to bring some of the Dreamliner manufacture to Everett ANYWAY! People don't become Journeymen/women in the Union without earning it.

I support the Union's demands.

Very valid points, and I agree.  Boeing does want to become wealthier, who can blame them, and it is very hard for the average Joe to understand when someone strikes.  Hey I have been on that striking side of things before.  

My argument to it all is that they both need each other, and they need to work together and stop trying to screw the other.  It happens all the time, why cant the 2 sides ever get along.  The pipe fitters union figured it out.    Boeing is raking, why not share it?

Here is my 2 cents... I have applied at Boeing a few times and I have yet to find a job that pays less then $15/hr. so this talk of $12... I would like to know the requisition number as even shop helpers make $17.50/hr to start. The union voted no because they beleived Boeing was bluffing about putting the Job to bid. Boeing announced today they put the contract up for bid. Kudos to the Union! Boeing wanted this result. Now they get to move the project out of state, thus saving millions. Boeing plants will get staff cuts, and the Union gets stuck looking bad because they didnt even make a counter offer. Boeing has proven to WA that it will close down shop if its not profitable(Renton?).
Most Boeing employees make a wage between 60-120k/yr this is not chump change. This is far above the median household income. The unions have gotten their way for the last 15yrs. I think it is unfare for the unions to not take any kind of benefit cuts or wage freezes when the rest of the economy is willing to take paycuts just to remain employed. The reality of today is kids are getting out of college with $100k debt and cant find jobs much higher then minimum wage. South Carolina Boeing employees do make less then here in WA(duh!) but then again their cost of living is ridiculously low. Look at houses for sale anywhere in the state.

To sum it all up I think Boeing was fair. They offered guranteed job security for over a decade in exchange for chainging pensions to 401ks. Its not like they are scrapping retirement planning altogether. Boeing wanted a way out of WA that shareholders could standby and the Union just gave it to them. Property is cheap folks... and Boeing leases their property so not much holding them back from moving out. Walmart has no issues closing down shop and moving outside city limits to get tax breaks how much more easier for a company in the business of Logistics?

Great Madness Sounds like this thread is a union versus corporate, just like what this Boeing madness is all about!
I'm sorry to hear your had to leave Local 46 due to a bad back,,, same with me, I left and turned Flagger for a few years part time and it made it worst for a lousy 10.00 per hour. I guess we're just getting to old to dig ditches, (I was a backhoe Operator most of the time) work on ladders til your feet hurt hanging cans and troughers for two weeks straight, and pull wire anymore.
Leave it to the next generation we put our time in now its their turn....