Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Guest 2013-11-12, 00:16

Question about why is it frown upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids?

**lloyd378** 2013-11-12, 00:23

i would argue that both are frowned upon by true keepers of each. I on the other hand appreciate not only pure strains of fish but also hybrids of both mentioned in the title of this post for their uniqueness..... though there is no resale value, and sometimes health concerns of these fish can be a real downside to humans with large hearts. so i only buy them when i know that i will keep them forever as a wetpet.....

hyp3rcrav3 2013-11-12, 00:24

Some people like to come up with new varieties. However, if a cichlid is in danger, and most of them are, they should be line bred as pure. Mixing genes is good whenever possible among species but not between species.

**Madness** 2013-11-12, 00:28

Hybridizing period is wrong. Let me rephrase that, purposely hybridizing species and then distributing these fish is wrong!! IMO the main reason why a large % of fish sold in our LFS are actually unknown species. If you want to hybridize, then keep them to yourself, cause they are distributed. Mad

**lloyd378** 2013-11-12, 00:31

Madness wrote:Hybridizing period is wrong. Let me rephrase that, purposely hybridizing species and then distributing these fish is wrong!! IMO the main reason why a large % of fish sold in our LFS are actually unknown species. If you want to hybridize, then keep them to yourself, cause they are distributed.

why? could you not give them a new scientific name (like a mashup of the two species the parents are), and then market them as that? I agree that selling fish that are hybrids as pure strains is wrong,and should be punishable by a fine! but if you don't misrepresent your fish, i don't see an issue with it.

except possibly in a moral type of way ( but morals don't seem to play a large part in a great number of peoples lives)

dwarfpike 2013-11-12, 00:52

It is wrong. Westie keepers and apisto keepers even keep the different locations of the same species separate ... which is good because often these end up being split into different species.

lloyd378 wrote:why? could you not give them a new scientific name (like a mashup of the two species the parents are), and then market them as that?

Because it wouldn't be a new species, thus it would be false advertising. Evolution doesn't work that way, that's not how new species come into being in the wild.

Guest 2013-11-12, 00:55

Cause in the reptile scene. Hybridization is always prize as new color morph are discovered. Like bearded dragons for instance (I know the not same animal kingdom) if it was mixed they labeled it "red x sunburst or hypo(white) x normal".

No im not selling hybrids btw. Just asking. Cause Ive seen some hybrid American cichlids. Like this one.
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**Madness** 2013-11-12, 00:59

lloyd378 wrote:
Madness wrote:Hybridizing period is wrong. Let me rephrase that, purposely hybridizing species and then distributing these fish is wrong!! IMO the main reason why a large % of fish sold in our LFS are actually unknown species. If you want to hybridize, then keep them to yourself, cause they are distributed.
why? could you not give them a new scientific name (like a mashup of the two species the parents are), and then market them as that? I agree that selling fish that are hybrids as pure strains is wrong,and should be punishable by a fine! but if you don't misrepresent your fish, i don't see an issue with it.

except possibly in a moral type of way ( but morals don't seem to play a large part in a great number of peoples lives)

Because even though you are smart about what you do does not mean that others will, or that those individuals that bought your fish breed them and then those fry are unknown. It turns into a huge snowball rolling down hill. Which is why I made the LFS comment. If the store is not purchasing from a reputable breeder or distributor, than who knows what is in their fish. Case and point Aquarium Paradise.

dwarfpike 2013-11-12, 00:59

Not sure how old you are, but when hybrids first came into the reptile hobby there was quite the uproar as well. It just happened long before the aquarium hobby did, and long before forums.

When I was serious into herps, I never kept them nor did any of my hard core herp friends.

**lloyd378** 2013-11-12, 00:59

I completely understand your need to keep things like they are in the wild. With that being said, I do not have any large warm water lakes or rivers running through my back yard, so while we keep the water parameters similar to that of their collection area, we should not fool our selves into thinking we are keeping fish like they have in the wild..... Heck, I don't even believe that aquariums have the ability to keep things identical to the wild.

But I'm confused as to what a hybrid species would be if not for a new species...... I think we have discussed this before, but if in the wild a bird caught a fish and dropped it into another water way where it's only chance for survival would be to mate with a different species , would scientists refuse to recognize this new hybrid fish as a separate species or? Meaning no disrespect here! I know our viewpoints on this matter vary greatly!!!

Guest 2013-11-12, 01:05

dwarfpike wrote:Not sure how old you are, but when hybrids first came into the reptile hobby there was quite the uproar as well. It just happened long before the aquarium hobby did, and long before forums.

When I was serious into herps, I never kept them nor did any of my hard core herp friends.

But have looked in herp world recently. Hybridization almost every species of snakes, lizards, and amphibians. Now tell me if I wrong. But we are talking about fish or cichlids. Herp conversation. .......

dwarfpike 2013-11-12, 01:07

Madness wrote:Because even though you are smart about what you do does not mean that others will, or that those individuals that bought your fish breed them and then those fry are unknown. It turns into a huge snowball rolling down hill. Which is why I made the LFS comment. If the store is not purchasing from a reputable breeder or distributor, than who knows what is in their fish. Case and point Aquarium Paradise.

Also a good point Madness. Not to mention things like red texas took YEARS of linebreeding. It wasn't as easy as taking a texas and a flowerhorn and boom. Lots of people forget that.

lloyd378 wrote:I completely understand your need to keep things like they are in the wild. With that being said, I do have any large warm water lakes or rivers running through my back yard, so while we keep the water parameters similar to that of their collection area, we should not fool our selves into thinking we are keeping fish like they have in the wild..... Heck, I don't even believe that aquariums have the ability to keep things identical to the wild.

But I'm confused as to what a hybrid species would be if not for a new species...... I think we have discussed this before, but if in the wild a bird caught a fish and dropped it into another water way where it's only chance for survival would be to mate with a different species , would scientists refuse to recognize this new hybrid fish as a separate species or? Meaning no disrespect here! I know our viewpoints on this matter vary greatly!!!

My issue is a moral one, I have no illusions about keeping any fish in a tank is like keeping them in the wild. But also practical. How hard is it to find pure midas, convict, or trimac now a days? If some poor kid wants to buy a pure convict, he has to pay $80 shipping from Rapps for what should be a $5 fish at the local store. And don't get me started on the flowerhorn people in Asia using critically endangered lyonsi in their flowerhorn linebreeding programs.

No, a scientist would not count them as a new species. It would be described as, for example (and what is happening in Media Luna now) H. carpentis x H. labridens. Hybrids in the past were described as separate species say 100+ years ago, but as they were studied under classic taxonomy they were taken from species status. Even more so now with using DNA.

dwarfpike 2013-11-12, 01:08

SiRWesDragon wrote:But have looked in herp world recently. Hybridization almost every species of snakes, lizards, and amphibians. Now tell me if I wrong. But we are talking about fish or cichlids. Herp conversation. .......

Was just pointing out they had a similar issue with it originally as we do now.

Guest 2013-11-12, 01:12

Madness wrote:Hybridization is wrong. Let me rephrase that, purposely hybridizing species and then distributing these fish is wrong!! IMO the main reason why a large % of fish sold in our LFS are actually unknown species. If you want to hybridize, then keep them to yourself, cause they are distributed.

Whats up with violence madness?

**Aquarium Co-Op** 2013-11-12, 01:17

I would disagree with all of you. This is the very thing that we were talking about on why we like this forum, not bashing others for what they believe.

There are many hybrids in the hobby that are all considered acceptable by most of the public.

All common strains of platies and swordtails for instance. Tiger Endlers are hybrids as well. The "electric blue lobsters" etc are hybrids to skirt around laws.

Then you get into the selective breeding of fish. Such as Koi and Goldfish which are both man made. Many variants of fish we keep have been bred for certain colors etc.

I think the best anyone can do is choose not to buy such a fish if it doesn't interest them. Because ranting to others will not fix the problem. If people were well versed in spotting hybrids etc if they were against it and voiced their opinions to store owners, that could make a difference.

However even that doesn't always work. Dyed fish and Tattoo'd fish are still sold in many stores even with people against it.

dwarfpike 2013-11-12, 01:21

Yeah Cory, I've stopped beating my head against the falling wall hoping to keep it up. It still gets me fired up though obviously. No worries though, I would never post my opinions on the keepers. I'd get permabanned. whistle

Out of curiousity, what other species of livebearer did they mix the endlers with?

**Aquarium Co-Op** 2013-11-12, 01:29

Tiger endlers were created on accident when a Tequila Sunrise guppy jumped from a middle row tank to a bottom row tank at a breeders house and went unnoticed. Thus came a crude form of today's Tiger endler.

**lloyd378** 2013-11-12, 01:30

Cory, I think this post shows exactly what we have been talking about too. I haven't read anyone bashing someone else, just some good conversations on greatly differing viewpoints......I don't mind discussing someone else's viewpoint, even if I don't agree with it.

As for example I do believe that hybrids are a new species/ or at least a varying species of fish already classified (which is why scientist are still to this day discovering new fish). And dwarfpike who believes the opposite shared why he does.... No one bashed each other's beliefs not did either change the other persons mind!

I do agree with the rest of your post! That was worded very nicely, from a person with a lot of knowledge into the hobby...... Again, nicely put!

dwarfpike 2013-11-12, 01:31

Aquarium Co-Op wrote:Tiger endlers were created on accident when a Tequila Sunrise guppy jumped from a middle row tank to a bottom row tank at a breeders house and went unnoticed. Thus came a crude form of today's Tiger endler.

Oh, so a racial hybrid. I was thinking like a platy or something. That brings up another thought, scientists consider racial mixes to be hybrids, but aquarists don't.

**Madness** 2013-11-12, 01:35

This thread is the exact reason why we have a forum. A good debate never hurt anyone, especially when everyone involved are sticking to the point. So kudos, to those involved.

dwarfpike 2013-11-12, 01:41

Cory & Madness - Don't worry, if I get too worked up I'll excuse myself from the thread. Been really good about that on other cichlids sites. Never had an infraction ... yet. beerchug

PS: and it's REALLY easy to get them on at least one of them. whistle

**Aquarium Co-Op** 2013-11-12, 01:43

Unless I show you my secret project of glo pike cichlids I've been working on Shocked

Guest 2013-11-12, 01:44

Anyone who has some hybrids show them. Why are beautiful and unique? No one bashing please. Just want to see all types of hybrids.

dwarfpike 2013-11-12, 01:46

Aquarium Co-Op wrote:Unless I show you my secret project of glo pike cichlids I've been working on

**Madness** 2013-11-12, 01:46

SiRWesDragon wrote:Anyone who has some hybrids show them. Why are beautiful and unique? No one bashing please. Just want to see all types of hybrids.

Great topic, start a thread on it. Doing that here would be derailing the thread Smile

dwarfpike 2013-11-12, 01:48

Madness wrote:... start a thread on it. Doing that here would be derailing the thread

hyp3rcrav3 2013-11-12, 19:29

Hybrids are not new species.

Defing a species; [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I just today bought 3 Psuedotropheus demasoni that may in fact be hybrids. The parents were in a tank with yellow labs so I doubt that is the source. It had to be from the breeder that petsmart purchased from and then sold this lady. They may also be an entire different species, Pseudotropheus sp. "perspicax orange cap" or a cross of the 2. They may be ps. demasoni from another region. I am annoyed but she sold them to me in good faith. I will watch and see before there is breeding with my F3 purebreds from Fish Pimp. I just wanted 15 in the tank.

fishNAbowl 2013-11-12, 22:43

Aquarium Co-Op wrote:I would disagree with all of you. This is the very thing that we were talking about on why we like this forum, not bashing others for what they believe.

There are many hybrids in the hobby that are all considered acceptable by most of the public.

All common strains of platies and swordtails for instance. Tiger Endlers are hybrids as well. The "electric blue lobsters" etc are hybrids to skirt around laws.

Then you get into the selective breeding of fish. Such as Koi and Goldfish which are both man made. Many variants of fish we keep have been bred for certain colors etc.

I think the best anyone can do is choose not to buy such a fish if it doesn't interest them. Because ranting to others will not fix the problem. If people were well versed in spotting hybrids etc if they were against it and voiced their opinions to store owners, that could make a difference.

However even that doesn't always work. Dyed fish and Tattoo'd fish are still sold in many stores even with people against it.

For some reason domesticated cats and dogs come into my mind when I read through this thread...lol

But, isn't it the same to an extent? All dogs and cats came from basic lines of wild animals. Throughout a millennia or two have been bred and interbred to act, look certain ways, eventually creating full recognized breeds of cats and dogs. Same goes with many fish we find in out LFS.

Dogs, cats, fish, stuff....to each their own. I like to say I am die hard purist separating my Apisto species but when I really think about it my Angels are a long way from being pure. Who knows about my big green Cory cats...lol!

dwarfpike 2013-11-12, 22:58

Dogs and cats are more along the lines of line bred guppies, koi, goldfish, discus, and angels.

Hybrids are crossing species. Something to consider. Cichlids are all the same family, Cichlidae. Great apes are all the same family, Hominidae. So crossing a texas and a dovii would be like sleeping with a chimp or gorilla and having a baby with it!!! Super Puke

DON'T SLEEP WITH THE MONKEYS!!!

Guest 2013-11-12, 23:33

dwarfpike wrote:Dogs and cats are more along the lines of line bred guppies, koi, goldfish, discus, and angels.

Hybrids are crossing species. Something to consider. Cichlids are all the same family, Cichlidae. Great apes are all the same family, Hominidae. So crossing a texas and a dovii would be like sleeping with a chimp or gorilla and having a baby with it!!!

DON'T SLEEP WITH THE MONKEYS!!!

but thats how big foot came to be. lol!

cichlid-gal 2013-11-13, 09:27

Interesting thread and comments here. I would like to chime in. I am not a hybrid "snob" but when it comes to my fish I do strive to eliminate hybridization and maintain the species as a "pure" species (or in at least as pure condition as they came to me in).

Why? In the end I want to be able to clearly say to someone that I am sharing fish with or who is purchasing my fish that they are "x" species, that they will behave in a certain way, that their offspring will look like them and not some other unknown or different species, that they came from this location, etc. etc. For me it comes down to wanting to provide a clear and clean lineage. If you are maintaining CARES fish (or endangered / at risk fish) you are responsible for a fish species that is struggling in the wild to even maintain it's existence. As a breeder or keeper of these at risk fish keeping their lines true to type is even more important. If the fish disappear from the wild, the fish in your tanks will be the only survivors. Would it be meaningful to have a tank full of surviving hybrids or to be sharing those hybrids as representing the lost wild species?

Fish kept in aquariums are much more likely to hybridize if not kept with proper numbers in their groups and ratios of male to females. In aquariums, fish are often from mixed locations. In the wild, fish usually have large groups of males of females spawning and live in a location and rarely travel to other locations. Their lives are nothing like what we keep in our tanks. Do wild fish hybridize? Sometimes, under unusual circumstances. In our tanks, those circumstances can be created in a moment, in the wild those circumstances might happen once in a hundred years.

Just my two cents.

cichlid-gal 2013-11-15, 14:28

And adding one more thought here as I just posted this in the wrong thread...forgive me... Head Wall

I would agree that conservation and hybridization can be two seperate subjects but that doesn't mean they can't go hand in hand. A comment was previously made regarding conservation not being related to hybridization. I just wanted to bring up the following:

Conservation is defined as
The protection, preservation, management, or restoration of wildlife and of natural resources such as forests, soil, and water.

I see protection and preservation coming into play in regards to hybridization of a species if it is being done purposefully. I.E. If you are purposefully hybridizing a species that needs protection and preservation you are not "conserving" that species. Also, if you are purposefully hybridizing any species you are not protecting it or preserving it. So using that old math trick...if a=b and b=c then a=c right? Therefore people who do not hybridize there fish would tend to be more conservation oriented than those that do...right??? Spot On

**Madness** 2013-11-15, 14:31

cichlid-gal wrote:And adding one more thought here as I just posted this in the wrong thread...forgive me...

I would agree that conservation and hybridization can be two seperate subjects but that doesn't mean they can't go hand in hand. A comment was previously made regarding conservation not being related to hybridization. I just wanted to bring up the following:

Conservation is defined as
The protection, preservation, management, or restoration of wildlife and of natural resources such as forests, soil, and water.

I see protection and preservation coming into play in regards to hybridization of a species if it is being done purposefully. I.E. If you are purposefully hybridizing a species that needs protection and preservation you are not "conserving" that species. Also, if you are purposefully hybridizing any species you are not protecting it or preserving it. So using that old math trick...if a=b and b=c then a=c right? Therefore people who do not hybridize there fish would tend to be more conservation oriented than those that do...right???

Exactly,

Completely agree.

dwarfpike 2013-11-15, 14:33

cichlid-gal wrote:If you are purposefully hybridizing a species that needs protection and preservation you are not "conserving" that species. Also, if you are purposefully hybridizing any species you are not protecting it or preserving it.

This is why I got so heated when I read an article stating that the SE Asian flowerhorn breeders where using lyonsi in their breedings now.

Guest 2013-11-15, 16:01

Well after this thread was opened and discussion were made. I decided to let go my ob peacocks to my LFS that had them before. They were already sold OBs and its up to the lfs. Did Not want to kill the fishes. The only ob i have is a ob fuelleborni. Its natural for this species in the wild I believe. Plus love his effing colors. My threads about posting hybrids let them post it already happened. And the wc vs store go for it on the other thread. Continue if anymore things need to say. Thanks.

Ps mods I believe this comment belongs to this thread also. Thanks

cichlid-gal 2013-11-15, 16:55

SirWes...I know that was not an easy decision but the up side of that choice is that you now will have room in your tank(s) for some new species (lots of great fish out there) that you can eventually share with your fellow fish hobbyists. And don't be disheartened although I know it is hard. When we 1st got back into cichlids someone sold us about 25 different cichlids claiming they were this and that. As they grew we realized that they were hybrid this and that's. It was so discouraging for us. We found a home for them with a friend of my daughters who just simply wanted some fish, not fish to breed and share. We then realized we had the opportunity to restock our tanks and get fish from reputable sources knowing that if and when we shared babies in the future we wanted to be pretty sure they were what we thought they were. We have not regretted our choices since that time. I am pretty sure you won't either.

Best of luck in your search for something new. Looking forward to seeing what you decide on.

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Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

Re: Question about why is it frowned upon hybridization of african cichlids but not American cichlids

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