so, im thinking the lane mountain sand has got to go

this is what I was going for:
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but my fish really aren't thriving with it. it hardens up the water fast. it hosts a bacteria that turns the tank black and emits sulfurous smelling bubbles while im doing water changes. it has next to no nutrients for plant growth

im thinking the whiteness of the sand, besides showing off the ginormous noodles of pleco shit, is really lending itself to a stakly lit tank
my 75 with t5s and brown fluorite is much more warm& comfortable looking

so dump the sand for fluorite, right? wrong- I have really gotten to enjoy how some species, like my corys and juripari do with fine grained substrate..
sooo...suggestions for something fine like sand, keeps the water nice and soft for the discus, and has plenty of yummy plant nutrition?

It probably won't keep the water soft if it has plenty of plant nutrition, so I think those two might be mutually exclusive but I could be wrong.

I like the sand I have, it's the stuff Cory sells at Aquarium Co-Op- it's medium-fine grained, definitely not as fine as the white sand, but that means better penetration of nutrients to solve part of your problem, and also I haven't had the problems with sulfur bubbles like I did with similar white sand.

I don't know about the bacteria, they may be thriving off excess silicates or something that is being dissolved into the tank, especially if it's acidic. I know silicates can contribute to brown algae growth, which can look like nasty black bacteria when it dies

That is an awesome tank to shoot for!  

I think pool filter sand should work for you. I use it in all my tanks, dirted or not, and I haven't had any problems with it.

Or is Lane Mountain Sand the same thing as pool filter sand, just a brand name? etc? Hmm..

I think pool filter sand is much more coarse, because it has to stay inside the filter of a certain pore size... it's probably more round too, to avoid cutting up the filter. I have heard it works good,so that's a great suggestion. But I have found it's expensive. AquaQuip had one that was just a bunch of crushed up beer bottles and was cheaper.... didn't seem fish safe! it was quite sharp, I don't know how that works in a filter...

Weird... Pool Filter Sand is like...way cheap, compared to the aquarium sand that is sold at petsmart/petco.

usually it's like $20 for a 50lb bag of Pool Filter Sand, whereas, "aquarium sand" at petco sells for like $20 for a 10lb bag.

Aquarium Co-Op sells the sand that's similar in size with pool filter sand for $7.50 for 10 lbs, which isn't bad at all (price-wise). But you definitely still get a better deal with pool filter sand.

I haven't had any problems with my Corydoras and their whiskers eroding from the pool filter sand, infact, I see them digging through the pool filter sand often

You can find Fluorite in sand. I have about 230 pounds of fluorite gravel & sand mix in one of my tanks its about 80% fluorite gravel, 20% sand. Please don't ask what I paid for it,lol.  I've had pretty large Earth eaters. They had no issue diggn. Although there is no longer big fish in there I currently have a good school of Emerald Cory cats owning the substrate now. Plants do well with fluorite, even better with CO2 injection and root tabs. You can also find Fluorite substrate  in kind of a rust brown color. I may eventually pick up a couple bags of that in sand just to add something different than black.

PokeSephiroth wrote:Weird... Pool Filter Sand is like...way cheap, compared to the aquarium sand that is sold at petsmart/petco.

usually it's like $20 for a 50lb bag of Pool Filter Sand, whereas, "aquarium sand" at petco sells for like $20 for a 10lb bag.

Aquarium Co-Op sells the sand that's similar in size with pool filter sand for $7.50 for 10 lbs, which isn't bad at all (price-wise). But you definitely still get a better deal with pool filter sand.

I haven't had any problems with my Corydoras and their whiskers eroding from the pool filter sand, infact, I see them digging through the pool filter sand often

Still got 14 panda cories living in PFS. I've had no problems so far.
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As far as flourite sand goes. I have no idea about it.

Gl with the aquascape though.

nick_76 wrote:
so dump the sand for fluorite, right? wrong- I have really gotten to enjoy how some species, like my corys and juripari do with fine grained substrate..
sooo...suggestions for something fine like sand, keeps the water nice and soft for the discus, and has plenty of yummy plant nutrition?

The only real nutritive substrates out there are derived from dirt. Even fluorite isn't very good in the nutrient department. As I understand it, its primary purpose in a planted tank is to provide a place for nutrients, as opposed to providing those nutrients itself. If you have your hearts on a nutritive substrate that helps keep water soft, you may consider aquasoil amazonia or something similar to that. The grain size isn't terribly small, but it'll pull your PH down and provide a ton of nutrients.

Other than that, as multiple other people have mentioned, pool filter sand is likely your best bet. It's bigger than standard sand and has mostly smooth edges - good for corys (though I've had no problems with corys and "rough" sand either). The only downside is that you're somewhat limited in your color choices...

Well he's doing o natural. PFS seems natural.

I am sucking the lane mtn out of my tank as well. While I liked the look of it, it just isn't working for me. Like mentioned I see some areas behind the background where it has turned black, I have not noticed and sulfur pockets at all. The other issue I remember Anthrax saying is it will cause diatoms which it has. Not so much on the rocks but on the sand itself. So I am going to reg PFS. I wish it was white but I have used it before and should be fine.. Another thing is the lane mtn is so fine I am having issues of it blowing around and getting into the filters.

BillHN wrote:Well he's doing o natural. PFS seems natural.

Yes, indeed.  The PFS I have is a beige color that looks like a natural stream bed. It looks great in a couple of my 20g tanks - the walstad and the garage 20 where I keep most of my corys.  It does tend to wash out fish and shrimp coloration though, which is why I commented on the color.

JimA: Now, see....THAT is weird, because I always thought that Pool Filter Sand would cause diatoms on the sand itself as well, since it's basically silica sand, but I haven't had any diatoms in my tanks... which is awesome! But yeah, it's just weird. And I'm surprised that, that Lane Mountain Sand is growing diatoms on it....... I'm guessing that, that stuff is basically the same stuff as Pool Filter Sand, but finer? I've never even seen that stuff before, but that's the only thing I can think of.

I've been using black aquarium sand from PetCo, the 20lb. bags are usually right around $20 after tax. I've been considering trying the blasting sand in an upcoming tank, but my concerns lie with it being too fine. Sounds like coarser grits are available. I believe Poke is using mineralized soil, like I am, and I believe we both have been very satisfied. I'm currently working on a new recipe for my soil and should have it all figured out by the end of the year.

I have a few tanks with CaribSea Torpedo beach sand.
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It's a good size, nice white color, I wouldn't want anything smaller. That dusty stuff causes all sorts of problems. Pool filter sand comes in different sizes. Torpedo beach is expensive and I'm guessing you can find a pool filter sand of similar diameter. I haven't seen what Cory's selling?
Silica does promote diatoms, even tank glass(especially a new tank)will grow it. Afwuchs grazers love diatoms so if you have otos, gastromyzons, plecos, etc. it's a good thing!

Just got done taking about 90% of it out, I only bought one bag of PFS 14 dollars. As far as the PFS sand causing diatoms so say yes some say no. I think it does, but I have never seen it on the sand itself like I did with the lane mtn.. Go figure? Anyhoo I miss the white as it really made my Tropheus pop, but they still look very good. Also rinsing the PFS took a 1/4 of the time it did for the lane mtn. Mainly I was not happy with how much of the fines from the lane mtn was ending up in the filters. Also when I syphoned the sand the bucket was always chit brown from the diatoms coming off the sand, sure I can stir it up but it just didn't look good.. I will post a before and after tomorrow for you! I also pulled almost all the rock out and did a really good cleaning of the tank..

Never have problems with diatoms cause I have a powerhead circulating the water all the time. Diatoms cant stick with water circulating. And also have 2 plecos eating all bio film. And 3 canister filters.  No problems.

SiRWesDragon wrote:Never have problems with diatoms cause I have a powerhead circulating the water all the time. Diatoms cant stick with water circulating. And also have 2 plecos eating all bio film. And 3 canister filters.  No problems.

I have 3 power heads 2 1500gph and one 1200gph along with one FX5 and 2 Aquatop 400 canisters so tons of flow and I get diatoms. So thinking that kinda blows that theory out of the water.. Pardon the pun  

i have heard of a brand of PFS called Mystic White which i am still trying to find that is supposed to be mostly white but has some darker flecks in it. i can order it online, but the shipping hurts a little. having a hard time finding it locally. those of you who want white sand may want to hunt around for some. maybe you can find it in your area.

Most of the PFS around here or Seattle area is Leslies or Target brand. Much depends on where you live in the country. Mid and South of the country seems to be whiter sand where as the west coast seems to be tan. Never seen the Mystic white..

Yeah, I have the Target brand, I believe. White does sound neat.

SiRWesDragon wrote:Never have problems with diatoms cause I have a powerhead circulating the water all the time. Diatoms cant stick with water circulating. And also have 2 plecos eating all bio film. And 3 canister filters.  No problems.

Not sure if that is really true, I had diatoms on my glass for a while in a new tank, and there was plenty of flow everywhere in the tank. They even grew on the glass directly across from my filter's outlet, which obviously had more current than the rest of the tank.

The three canister filters are probably the main reason you don't get diatoms- especially if any of them have UV. And the plecos will take care diatoms before they can even form in my experience. Also, if your tank is well-established, there probably aren't any silicates left in the water to promote the growth of diatoms anyway.

Don't mean to argue, but I don't think the claim that more flow -> no diatoms is always true.

edit: also, to stay on topic, I doubt that you will be able to find anything white that won't have some silicates which will dissolve and promote diatom growth, especially if you run with a PH less than 7. I would think that an acidic PH would just keep dissolving more and more silicates from the sand, and you would keep having problems with diatoms. You could try raising your PH with some crushed coral or something like that; since I put a bit if crushed coral in my 20 it hasn't had much of a problem with diatoms like it did at the beginning.

You could try soaking whatever you end up getting in some fairly acidic water for a few days, and keep changing the water out, that may get rid of some of the silicates that might be left over when you just rinse it.

From what I have read over the last few years, diatoms can be caused by phosphates in the water alao? I am on a well and pretty sure phosphates are present. Maybe some day I will check. LOL

The PFS sold in Ace Hardware stores here sell HTH brand... This one:
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well, to stay further on topic, im considering dirting my tank- im just not sure how to retrofit the dirt..i wouldn't even know the right one to choose, or how to best change over in an established tank with the minimum of stress to the fish. need to look into the best way to prepare it...hopefully it doesn't discolor my water

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Or be lazy and buy some from anderson :]
Here's a couple of his pics.

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May 6 Picture: 



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May 28th 


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Aug 12th:

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7 Hours ago!

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And yes he sells mineralized soil

That works too lol

that looks promising...I thought I saw people selling som mud or something at the swap...but I need about 100 lbs (dry weight) of the stuff so I may have to make my own. I hope it plays nice with discus

I guess im just lucky that I can keep mountain lane sand, white. And also do a walstad planted tank balanced eco. Damn lucky.  

lol, thanks for the plug Billy. My new recipe for soil will require no more than 1" deep soil capped with 1.5-2" coarse sand, very similar to the Talbot recipe, but it should promise to be even more nutrient dense with no need for adding supplements under the soil. I was the one selling v1.1 soil at the swap, sold a bit, but still took some home. If you choose to do it yourself my best advice is to not rush the process. My last batch took more than 2 months to make. My results have required no fertilizers, though I do use co2. The only algae I struggle with is thread algae, I had a SAE to take care of that, but I'm sure it would eat the shrimp if it were still in the, aside from getting too big. Even that is manageable with a toothbrush, granted it's only a 10g

wes. my lane mountain remains white....its what lurks below the surface that's an issue...I get pockets of blackened, foul smelling sand that emits bad smelling bubbles...you don't notice it till u vacuum the thing, and out of your white sand you get a vacuum packed with charcoal black sand when u hit one of these pockets

im thinking whatever it is, if its bad to me when I clean the tank its gotta be worse for the fish living in it. they don't seem happy with this substrate- my other tank I can ignore for a week or three...but this one...something in that sand is bothering my discus..

Anderson- I live in an apartment so I really cant go through the process outlined in that link...whats about 100 lb (dry) of dirt gonna cost me? was it you selling that stuff at the swap?

Go dirted bro. Do mineralized dirt process first. Trust me saves you from 2x water changes per week for the first few months. Tanins from dirt, Nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia leeching out. Faster in balancing the ecosystem in tank.
When you have it all going good. No ferts, no co2, but make sure you have MTS to stir dirt substrate a little to release some gasses in the dirt.  If that gas stays too long could cause some problems for the fauna. My dirted is perfect now and especially with the new plants that Seattle_Aquarist aka roy give me. Maybe someday I'll do a planted discus tank too.

that's what im lookin to do....but I cant just lay dirt out to dry repeatedly, not where I am....so im stuck buying it from someone...

I don't figure $ by weight, but by area. What is the footprint of the tank your'e doing? Yes I had the dirt at the swap. I have access to acreage, tractors, and I married into a very "scientific" family that also used to own a plant nursery and landscape design and installation company for over 20 years. I've got some decent credentials behind the new recipe Our plan is to start processing the soil by the cubic yard and have it available for sale either directly or through local stores. Too busy to focus on it right now, our first child is due in early December. Come beginning of next year though, we should be rolling pretty good. That being said, I've basically been selling for $10/sqft @ 1" thickness. Might seem like a lot, but I haven't used any fertilizers in 6 months, that's where the savings is.

BTW: when moistened, but not fully saturated it only weighs about 4 lbs/sqft @1" thickenss after being processed. Also, I'll be doing a 20g long as the guinea pig for the new recipe, you can keep an eye out for the results.

well, id be buying quite a bit so I guess its gonna get spendy fast....90 gallon corner tank, 4 inches deep

I h... TT34^2=3600 in^2/144= 25 feet*$10/ft.....250$ is a bit steep for dirt..

No nick. You only need 2 inches mineralized top soil and 1-2 cap of your choice from gravel/flourite mix to sand. All you need. Go to youtube and find dustin's fishtank on how to dirt your tank. The problem he did was not mineralizing his dirt. Its the how he did it.

I don't do caps....so yea, I gotta go all in

The reason for caps is to prevent dirt clouds or hold plants and dirt down. If you wanting to balance the color with the dirt. Go black gravel or black sand. Trust me you want the cap. If you got any cory cat type fish, they will spread dirt clouds every time they swim.

I don't mind that. seems im the only one who likes the flour-fine consistency of lane mountain sand. in fact, im specifically looking for something fine grained for my corys and such..otherwise id go all fluorite, which does real well in my other tank

im also thinking of the long term integrity of the strata...eventually theyre all gonna mix together, and there goes what I was looking for in the first place...

Ah, see my experience has been that you have to cap it.  One guy I who got some of my soil didn't have enough of a cap and he could not get the water to clear with water changes or filtration.  The cap is essential to a dirtied tank in my opinion.  

I guess I did the math different.  I figure your corner tank is roughly a 36"radius.  Being a corner tank it's roughly 1/4 of a circle.  The area of a circle with a 36" radius is around 28sqft, 1/4 that is about 7sqft.  25sqft would be a 2ftx12.5ft tank.  At 7sqft you'd be around $70, $180 less than you were thinking.  Or, correct me if I'm wrong, it's been known to happen.

It's true burrowing critters can potentially mix the layers, a thicker cap helps but too thick isn't good for plants. I deal with this by abstaining from critters that would burrow into the sand. As far as the layers melding naturally? probably not going to happen. The way I process the soil it forms a super thick super dense layer, when it dries it's like a brick. I doubt the two would mix.

nick_76 wrote:im also thinking of the long term integrity of the strata...eventually theyre all gonna mix together, and there goes what I was looking for in the first place...

The cap and soil wont mix unless you're constantly replanting and moving plants everday. Even if the cap gets mix and getting lesser (unlikely) you can always buy more black sand or gravel to cap it. But to each his own. Just advising since Im into dirted also. Love this black sh**! Walstad method is the best. Why, do you see mother nature putting ferts in water. No. Dirt is natural. Should of done all my planted dirt. For my 35gal I only used 1 bag cubic yard, I think to make 2 inches. For yor tank multiply. Good luck bro

R= 34"
so the math for a quarter round would be
a=.25TT34^2
a= 907 in^2 /144= 6.3 feet

that's for a 1" layer, I said im doing 4"...soo either drop the .25 from the original equation, or multiply the result by 4, you come to the same answer

if the cap is essential, then dirt isn't for me...if im just gonna throw fluorite on top, why not just go all fluorite? works for my other tank...thing is, I want a soft bottom for my bottom dwellers

and as for the layers merging, it wouldn't happen naturally. I prefer to occasionally deep vac the open areas in my tank. as in all the way to the glass, help stir stuff up

Dirted might not be for you. Cap is essential cause prevents dirt cloudiness, hold plants securely, and when you water vac you just skim the top cap lightly to suck poop but I don't it goes back to the plants and in the dirt substrate (natural fert)

Look at LJ's dirted tank journal. Good info on how to proper dirting tanks.
I hope you go dirted.

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This is really scaring me off of wanting to buy that sand. This is the one that was 100 lbs for 5 dorrah?

BillHN wrote:This is really scaring me off of wanting to buy that sand. This is the one that was 100 lbs for 5 dorrah?

Dont be skared. I dont have problems with it. Look my africans like it. Its not good for plants cause no nutrients cant go through the fine sand..