Nano tank advice NEEDED!

Hi all!
So I am highly considering starting a nano tank that can fully sustain itself without filter or heater; using just light as a heat source IF this is even plausible.

I want to get a 3 gallon tank and install a shelf that sits at the very top just barely below the water level. Up here I hope to plant a bonsai tree and a nice looking moss to cover the top. <-- I will need advice on this as well so any info helps!

Anyways, below I want to find some grass like plants that require low lighting for the area that is covered by the shelf. Down here I also hope to find an underwater light that I can install either under the shelf pointing down or in the sand. In the open area I hope to find some plants that won't grow very tall but look nice in a tank. Along the back of the tank, where I will have it backed to a wall, I want to create a wall of java moss thick enough to hide shrimp in. <-- the java moss part I already know how to do. Also in this area I want to find some dwarf flowering lily plants to have grow towards the top though I may already have some... CrazedAce and I had gotten some at the last swap meet but I don't know which tank he hid them in OR if they will be small enough for this tank #_#
For water flow I will just have a decorative air stone in there, though if I can avoid having to use one then that is a plus!

NEXT I need to figure out what kind of fish I want in it. I was considering doing a male Betta though that just seems too common. So I am hoping to find some nano fish that I can have a school of in there AND won't destroy the shrimp I plan on putting in there.

But to start, I am in need of the 3 gallon tank, just a average looking one, the underwater lighting and the Bonsai tree! A flowering one preferably

Soooooo....... Any help in where I can find everything that I need and what I should get??

I have been looking around at fish articles and different topics a lot today, and just now I came across a forum topic on another forum about a guy who runs 6gallon fluval edge tanks with a 10gallon sump underneath... this is a very interesting idea, having a sump which is larger than the main tank, and could help you do less maintenance in the long run. Of course it will be more work and money initially, but you don't have to go this complex and "showy"

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This might help keep the temperature of the system more stable and stop huge, quick swings; this is the main issue I can see with a nano unheated tank (aside from the normal nano tank issues, of course). Having lots of extra water volume, which could even be insulated in the sump area, would at least help keep the temperature more stable. This is probably what I would do if I really wanted a small tank that was unheated.

Denny's Pet World in Kirkland has some underwater LED's that might work for you, but they won't generate a lot of heat. I don't know about putting any type of "hot" bulb under the water, it would take a lot of DIY sealing, and then I would worry about breakage due to thermal stress. You could get or make a hood that would keep a lot of heat in around the top, but it won't be very efficient (heat rises), and it will defeat your bonzai tree idea. Then you have the fact that when the light is not on, you have no heat... and you are back to temperature swings. Honestly, if I were you I would just go for a small heater and hide it somewhere in the tank. Even a nano heater will help keep the temperature stable, and you don't have to keep it any warmer than room temp, but it will help stop really big, quick temperature swings which some critters won't appreciate.

If you find a grasslike plant that only requires low light and grows well for you, let us all know, because we and everyone else in the hobby have been looking for the same thing I would recommend some stargrass for the "open area, looks nice" plant you mentioned. For me it grows really low and bushy, which would be nice for a nano, but it might get tall faster if you have low-ish light. I have a bit in my own nano and it doesn't grow as nice and low with lower light, but still looks nice. Italian Val is another of my favorites, and it seems to grow a lot slower than regular valisneria, and it might do better in low light than stargrass. I haven't tried many other plants in "low" light. I would also highly recommend some floating plants if you are going with only 3 gallons; they do a good job at taking up some of the excess nitrates that will quickly build up with any fish in it.

Speaking of stocking, I would say with 3 gallons you have a couple options on fish, but the best one is probably just to stick with shrimp and snails. There are some pretty cool snails out there, like the chopsticks I have in my little tank, and of course a new type of shrimp every other hour. I have kept H. formosa in a 4 gallon for a couple of months now, and they are doing ok, but not that interesting overall. A betta will probably be the most interesting and appropriate option, and there are some fantastic types out there that aren't what I would call common. Check out Aquarium Co-Op if you can, some very nice bettas there.

Cory at Aquarium Co-Op has some really nice rimless tanks, and I think he even has a 3 gallon for (I think) about $45 that looks amazing. If you want to go cheaper, I have heard around town that petco might be having their $1/gallon sale sometime after the 1st, which is what I am waiting for to get a new tank, but this only applies to 10gallon and up... I think they still have the cheapest tanks for physical stores, but I'm sure you can find something cheaper online. They also don't have 3 gallon, but have 2.5 and 5 gallon sizes. I recommend the rimless tanks though, eheim makes my favorite type of nano, with the curved front edges, but I don't know if you like the cube look and I don't know if they make them as small as 3 gallons.

It may go against what most would consider canon, but there are folks actually doing this out there. I was researching into it a few days ago and found the following how-to videos from ADA. Videos are in japanese, but there are subtitles.

Setup


Maintenance


As for where to get tanks, the fish store on Roosevelt had some absolutely ridiculous prices on rimless tanks that would work great for ya! Otherwise the co-op is the place to go! The co-op also has the best LEDs out there if you want extra lighting. But if you really wanna go low tech, just keep the water at room temperature in a room that has a stable temperature, like a bedroom that is always heated to something like 68-72.

Let us know what you decide to do! (I'm also planning to try this out soon!)

Do a google search on "wabi-kusa" for more on this type of tank.  There are lots of great sites and threads out there, even ones that show you how to build your organic plant ball media for starting your plants.

Intriguing idea as I can see a beautiful window with a shelf or nice cabinet in front of it and lining it with little "wabi-kusa" tanks all with different plants and fish/snail/shrimp

Very cool

And here's a more detailed video on creating your wabi-kasu planted "ball" and how to get it started (I only wish he had described how to make the substrate ball itself). Would be very interesting to try.

cichlid-gal wrote:And here's a more detailed video on creating your wabi-kasu planted "ball" and how to get it started (I only wish he had described how to make the substrate ball itself).  Would be very interesting to try.

These videos are pretty awesome.

So if I am understanding this correctly your wanting to create an ecosystem that's self sustaining under a mini Bonsai tree? This sounds like a neatO idea but I see some issues with some of the details.

In my head; one would need full access under the tree. Java moss walls are high maintenance. This decor will need to be trimmed often and light will need to be directed at an angle or the moss on the bottom may die out. You may want to consider a slow growing moss with a different growth pattern, and may want to consider a partial wall that maybe only covers the top 50%.

The tree will need to be placed in something you can lift off the tank for plant maintenance.   You might be able to place the tank in a sunny window and get what you need for light but plant choice would need to be picked accordingly. There are mini plant growing LED lights that you might want to consider. This could be installed directly behind the tree angled down into the water if u want higher light plants.

I would search for a small or "nano" type water pump to create water movement. You could do this with an air pump but I think in your post u where looking for alternative ideas.

I believe you can do this. If there is water moment, many plants with appropriate lighting a balanced ecosystem can be achieved. You can do mini water changes using small lines. You could pick up something like an Aqualifter that is a 3GPH external pump to do water changes or even use one to create water movement.

I have made self sustaining ecosystems but never one with a bonsai tree on top : )

It maybe rough at 1st achieving balance so I would consider fish or critters that are hardy. Your going to want to add algae eaters and bottom feeders as soon as possible to try to keep the system clean.

Expect this system to be high maintenance at 1st. Many water changes will be needed to keep Ammonia levels at a safe level.  If you can use seasoned substrate you can get a jump on things.

fishNAbowl wrote:
It maybe rough at 1st achieving balance so I would consider fish or critters that are hardy. Your going to want to add algae eaters and bottom feeders as soon as possible to try to keep the system clean.

Expect this system to be high maintenance at 1st. Many water changes will be needed to keep Ammonia levels at a safe level.  If you can use seasoned substrate you can get a jump on things.

+1 to the substrate idea, this will probably be a key to making things a lot easier on yourself. That, and having the right balance of plants to animals like fishnabowl pointed out, will be the keys to making this work

That being said, I have been experimenting with tiny pico aquariums that I have set up inside flower vases and storage containers from the goodwill, and even with new (re-used, but dried out for a long time) substrate, I have been able to keep 1 shrimp and a couple of small snails alive for over a month now with no water changes. I did use "aged" water from my 20 gallon tank, so that may have had enough bacterial load to seed those tiny tanks, at least enough to take care of the minimal waste that is created when I don't feed more than 1 small pellet per week

I need a moment to take in all of the info! Lol though thank you all for the responses I did a quick skim earlier and loved the rimless tank idea. Some guy at petsmart had told me about a good website to check out and I tried to make a mental note of it but got caught up in the moment of everything and forgot by the time I left the store D: ugh! But, I decided that I will just do a practice tank for now and then work on a quality show nano tank as I learn more about what I am doing and how to properly landscape it all. With that said, I bought a semi rimless topfin aquarium with a decent LED top light that I can move around and a submersible filter that is pretty nifty and has a spray bar which I actually like quite a bit! I will probably keep this for a while at least. I found some small betta bowl/tank heaters that I was going to get but completely forgot about though it shouldn't be an issue for now unless our power goes out since we keep an oil heater in our bathroom (where it is at) on full blast. I bought some dwarf hair grass and planted a small portion in the tank and planted one of the dwarf flowering lilies that we had gotten last swap along with one of the Nymphoids taiwan plants we had bought a couple swaps back and some random plant that crazedace threw in. Neither of us are sure what it is.. I will post a pic later.

I completely agree that I should have something that I can lift off the tank so that I can maintain and manage the plants. I am going to look up some ideas for that to make it look more natural. ^^^ I still need to finish reading what you all posted and watch the videos. But as far as lighting underneath for other plants I do want to find an LED light that I can mount under the shelf that will have the bonsai tree.

For fish, I will just start with either a goldfish (not preferably at all due to ammonia) or a female betta since we still have two from our breeding stock left over and probably throw in a couple BN pleco fry since we have more than enough lol no snails for now unless I get a couple nerites.
Later, when it is fully cycled and can sustain itself more, I want to get a few pygmy cory's for bottom feeders and remove the plecos. I still want to add some shrimp and get them to start reproducing in it. I am considering getting some Dario Dario for it. I had seen them at wet spot before and was tempted to get them because of how small they are and remain. Doing some research on them now but here is the general description of them:

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Anyways, now its time to read up on everything! Let me know what you think of my current ideas

Another fish idea I just found is Sparkling Gourami! They are pretty cute so I might do one male Dario Dario and a Sparkling Gourami and a small batch of Pygmy Cory's and another nano fish species along with some shrimp. But... I will see what can comfortably fit and be healthy in this tank. Off to research again!

Of the fish choices so far, sparkling gouramis and pygmy corys seem like the best choice so far... though they may still be too big for a true nano setup with low maintenance. You might consider dwarf rasboras or Endler's. White clouds and guppies seem like a natural choice too.

Good luck with the cycling process! I'd definitely try something simpler to cycle since the nano is going to be so sensitive to water parameters. If you try too big or wasteful a fish, you might be dealing with the aftermath longer than if you hadn't bothered cycling the tank at all...

The Wabi Kusa idea is pretty darn close to what I want to do and has sparked some more ideas on how to make this all possible!

It sounds like I need to take a trip up to the co-op for when I want to start my show nano tank. I think I just need to check it out soon regardless!

When I get my current 2.6 gal tank looking better and more planter I will take a pic of the progress. I am NOW thinking about finding some stones and carving up some drift wood and making my own little corner shelf instead of what I originally planned. Ah, who knows what I will do! I can play around with it for now right?

Heck yeah! And share tons of pictures!

MRTom wrote:Of the fish choices so far, sparkling gouramis and pygmy corys seem like the best choice so far... though they may still be too big for a true nano setup with low maintenance. You might consider dwarf rasboras or Endler's. White clouds and guppies seem like a natural choice too.

Good luck with the cycling process! I'd definitely try something simpler to cycle since the nano is going to be so sensitive to water parameters. If you try too big or wasteful a fish, you might be dealing with the aftermath longer than if you hadn't bothered cycling the tank at all...

I liked the substrate cycling idea that was mentioned, I was just thinking about using some filter media but I was worried that it would be too much for such a small tank. I still have a lot of research to be done though I am not too fond of putting guppies/endlers in this tank since they are fairly common. I checked out some rosboras but I am not to interested in them as well.. And white clouds are also pretty common sooo.... Not so fond of those either. I might be able to fit a trio of C.P. Danio's but that is pushing the limits of the tank to an extreme in my opinion. I want to try to keep the fish under an inch each
but thanks for the ideas! I am just kind of bored with all the common ones we can find in pet stores. I need something that makes people ask me what it is and where I got it! Lol

Sparkling gouramis fall in the same category of common fish tho If you really want something that stands out, try out rice fish! They're hard to find, and many of them have these awesome blue eyes that you can see from across the room. Some of them also happen to be pretty hardy fish too!

So I did some quick googling and found an even more ideal plant to use; Micro swords! Low light requirements, and can grow in just about any water parameters. Here's a link
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And of course I will keep looking for more plants to convince my wife we need to buy.

I just heard of Sparkling Gourami's so they caught my eye lol but I have heard of rice fish before but not much. I will have to look into that because the blue eyes sound amazing! We have an albino blue eyed pleco and I just love her to bit! I can't wait to pair her up with a male! Not sure what happened to put male Calico.. He was pretty good at hiding in the tank we had him in but we haven't seen him for a few weeks even when we have moved things out and around but we haven't seen corpse either. :/ I hope he is just doing a VERY good job at hiding.

Getting it! Lol We need more plants like that ^_^

And a list of crypts we can use:
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Basically any of the smaller crypts would be perfect, though the the one in the first link posted seems to be best at growing fast and needing less light.

And a bunch of ideas from this person:
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I NEED the Crypt Beckettii (Cryptocoryne beckettii)!!! It's PURPLE!!! *w*

Crypt Wendtii (Cryptocoryne wendtii) is pretty nice looking as well

Ripples,  in my experience all the fish mentioned above are great. The rice fish with iridescent blue eyes are absolutely amazing! But, these fish maybe something to consider once the ecosystem is completely established. When starting out I would consider something more hardy like Beta, then after all cycling is complete move onto Pygmy Corydalis. Once you know all is well established maybe re-home the Beta and invest in something like Rice fish, shrimp, otocinclus.  This is just a suggestion. I have done this before and lost expensive fish & shrimp even when I thought everything was going well (in my 1st self contained system). My later tries at this I moved super slow and used the steps I mentioned with success.

I have small Crypt Wendtii spreading around my big tank. The leaves are green with a hint of rusty red color and dark tiger stripes.  If interested in any and if you are ever in the area let me know

Yeah we already have a couple female betta's I can use to help fully establish the tank and we have TONS of cherry red shrimp so I shouldn't have to buy anything until I have the tank completely prepared for whatever else I want to and can add. I am pretty excited! I am just waiting a few days before testing to see if I can put the betta in.

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^^ Start to my nano
It has been running for a week or so with a nylon full used filter media floating around in it.

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Tonight we put 5 rcs, 1 albino BN pleco, 1 leopard danio (was going to be dinner) and 3 Malaysian trumpet snail. It is very very likely we put them in too soon but.... I got a bit impatient. I am monitoring the fish and if I notice anything wrong I will immediately take them out.

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The design is temporary.. The plants I have in there are Vallisneria sp, dwarf hair grass, Nymphoids Taiwan, dwarf lily, java fern and Subwassertang.

Ripples wrote:Another fish idea I just found is Sparkling Gourami! They are pretty cute so I might do one male Dario Dario and a Sparkling Gourami and a small batch of Pygmy Cory's and another nano fish species along with some shrimp. But... I will see what can comfortably fit and be healthy in this tank. Off to research again!

I completely forgot about these! I have 1 of these in my 4 gallon tank as well, and he/she seems to do well at relatively close to room temp. I do have a heater in the tank, but it's not set very high.

edit: by the way, it looks really good so far. Just don't get discouraged if the plants don't take off right away (or some of them die back), they might take a while especially in a new tank. Looks like you started with plenty of them, though, which is the best way to start imo!

Thanks
I am pretty happy with the design and it is growing on me... My longfin leopard danio seems to be much more happy in this tank now that he has shrimp and a pleco as buddies and doesn't have to wait the imminent doom of becoming food for the cichlids! Lol I am actually really enjoying him in this tank and might keep him and the others in there permanently. My sister is giving me a cheap 3 gal tank I got my nephew last year since we are upgrading them to a ten gal. It is a half moon style 3 gal and I am going to play with that one as well!

Oh and my fish currently don't have a heater in their tank but it is staying a decent temp with our heater in there. The fish in there will do fine without one but I am concerned that the plants wont do as good.

Plants will be fine if the fish are OK, they will probably even do better with a temps a little lower rather than higher (exceptions for certain tropical plants I would guess, but I don't know which ones). I think you'd have to get down into the 60's or 50's before the plants really start slowing down at all.

The best advice I can give, from my short experience with plants in aquariums, is to make sure you have a good quality light source. I like LED because most of the usable light is directed downward to begin with, unlike fluorescents which need a reflector to get the most out of them.

Yeah the tank came with a decent LED light. It makes the tank look vibrant!

Btw, I sent you a PM about where you got the sparkling Gourami...