Plant based foods????

So I decided to ask the question here on the African section since so many of the fish seem to have a need for a higher plant based diet.

I am going to raise out a Central American group of H. Pearsei and am looking for some good plant based food? What do you guys recommend?

In my current mix of foods I have NLS and Omega One Super Kelp Pellets. The Omega One stuff is good because the first two ingredient are plant based but it only is available in a 2mm floating so when the fish get larger they will need something bigger. NLS claims that all you need is NLS even for herbivores, is this really true? Would like to hear your thoughts on this.

From my research so far Ive come up with these ingredients. Any preferences?

So here is the ingredient list for Omega One Super Kelp Pellets:
INGREDIENTS: Whole Kelp, Spirulina, Whole Salmon, Halibut, Seafood Mix (Including Krill, Whole Herring, & Shrimp), Wheat Flour, Wheat Gluten, Lecithin, Astaxanthin, L-Ascorbyl-2-Phosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Natural and Artificial Colors, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Folic Acid, Biotin, Inositol, Tocopherol (Preservative), Ethoxyquin (Preservative).

Here is Hikari Cichlid Excel:
Ingredients: Fish meal, wheat flour, wheat-germ meal, flaked corn (processed), spirulina, dehydrated alfalfa meal, krill meal, brewer's dried yeast, enzyme, astaxanthin, garlic, DL-methionine, monosodium glutamate, and vitamins and minerals including stabilized Vitamin C.

Here is the NLS:
Whole Antarctic krill meal, whole herring meal, wheat flour, whole squid meal, algae meal, soybean isolate, beta carotene, spirulina, garlic, vegetable and fruit extract (spinach, broccoli, red pepper, zucchini, tomato, pea, red and green cabbage, apple, apricot, mango, kiwi, papaya, peach, pear), vitamin a acetate, DL alphatocophero (E), d-activated animal sterol (D3), vitamin B12 supplement, niacin, folic acid, biotin thiamine, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, calcium pantothenate, L-ascorby-2-polyphosphate (stable C), choline chloride, copper proteinate, ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, cobalt sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate.

I feed NLS to all of my herbivores, including the tropheus. That's pretty much all they eat with the occasional veggie flake or stick leftover from an order I made a long time ago when the tropheus were new and I didn't want to change their diet overnight. I gradually weaned them over to the NLS.

The vegetable sticks were from Ken's. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I dont use as a staple food, but do feed this several times / wk.

Microbe-Lift Fruits and Greens:
Ecological Laboratories believes variety is the spice of life and, as far as we know, are the first fish food manufacturer to commercially produce a food with such variety! If you don’t have time to cut up fruits and vegetables for your pond fish, feed them Legacy Fruits and Greens. They have done the cutting and blending for you, with apples, apricots, kiwis, mangos, papayas, peaches, pears, broccoli, cabbage, peas, red peppers, tomatoes, zucchini and spinach all in this scientific blend.

I have heard good things using the NLS with Tropheus. Right now I do have a Pearsei in my 210g that eats NLS and so far so good. My main concern was when the fish gets to a larger size. No problem with obtaining NLS foods but many of the other brands do not offer much for a larger type fish.

madness wrote:I dont use as a staple food, but do feed this several times / wk.

Microbe-Lift Fruits and Greens:
Ecological Laboratories believes variety is the spice of life and, as far as we know, are the first fish food manufacturer to commercially produce a food with such variety! If you don’t have time to cut up fruits and vegetables for your pond fish, feed them Legacy Fruits and Greens. They have done the cutting and blending for you, with apples, apricots, kiwis, mangos, papayas, peaches, pears, broccoli, cabbage, peas, red peppers, tomatoes, zucchini and spinach all in this scientific blend.

I know this is a koi based food. This already means a lower protein higher vegetable matter diet, doesn't it?

Yes sir. I feed a lot of Koi food to my Cichlids.

The protein content stays around the 35%, unless your using the growth food, then it has 40% protein. It makes for a nice addition to the regular food. NLS, Hikari, Omega, Kens, etc.....

So really I dont need to worry too much. I should do ok with my NLS in there. And I could always add the Microbe-Lift Fruits and Greens when the fish are larger.

I think as long as your feeding them good food with some occasional veggie, or add the veg food with the reg food, you will be just fine.

Thanks.

So really I dont need to worry too much. I should do ok with my NLS in there.

That would be correct.

Some people overthink this, and quite often aren't gaining much if anything with their "wide variety", and in many cases are outright losing without ever realizing it.

As an example, the koi food that Shawn is using is very high in starch content, and very low in actual vegetable content, so if the idea was to increase the overall veg content of the fishes diet - this food is a major fail.

Ingredients Include: Fish meal, wheat, wheat middlings, distillers grains with soluables, dehulled soybean meal, corn gluten meal, fruit and vegetable blend. Apples, apricots, kiwis, mangos, papayas, peaches, pears, broccoli, cabbage, peas, red peppers, tomatoes, zucchini and spinach all in this scientific blend.

The fruit & vegetable blend is an extract, that probably consists of less than 1% of the entire formula, the majority of this formula consists of starch - wheat, ddgs, soybean, and corn.

Unlike cichlids, koi don't have an actual stomach, and they are fairly efficient at assimilating terrestrial based starch, even at higher levels. (30-40%) Cichlids, not so much. When it comes to feeding most fish, including cichlids, there can be a major difference between feeding terrestrial based plant matter such as corn, soybean, etc, and aquatic based plant matter, such as algae meal, kelp, spirulina, and various micro-algae.

My advice, if you really feel the need to supplement your pearsei beyond just feeding NLS, there are far healthier options than the koi food mentioned in this thread.


HTH

Thank you for the info RD.

I actually recently added NLS to my fishes diet. I just wish there were a few mid size floating pellets available, a 3mm slow sinking or floating would be ideal. But probably not a huge issue since the fish are growing so fast they can probably take the 4.5mm floaters soon.

No problem, glad to help.

BTW I agree, a 3mm floating pellet would be nice. I have some juvie citrinellum that were just recently converted to the 4.5mm floaters, which I tend to prefer over sinking pellets, at least for larger CA species.

RD. wrote:No problem, glad to help.

BTW I agree, a 3mm floating pellet would be nice. I have some juvie citrinellum that were just recently converted to the 4.5mm floaters, which I tend to prefer over sinking pellets, at least for larger CA species.

Yes 3mm would be nice. I agree, floaters for the larger Cichlids are much preferred. Come on RD, get on them and make it happen.

I have been using a pill crusher to break down the larger pellets, to feed to those fish that are right in the middle in size. Works real well, just a pain in the rear.

Omega one is one of my favorites simply from the awesome and simple ingredients list and low ash compared to other foods. I just love when it says specific whole fish ingredients first. The words fish meal always turn me off to any food. What kind of fish???

Koi food for cichlids doesnt make a lot of sense to me as cichlid food is designed for cichlids and koi food for koi. We dont feed our dogs cat food and our cats dog food for a reason.

fishman09 wrote:
Koi food for cichlids doesnt make a lot of sense to me as cichlid food is designed for cichlids and koi food for koi. We dont feed our dogs cat food and our cats dog food for a reason.

Well. I am looking at my dog food and my cat food, and really, there is NOT much of a difference in ingredients. Nice try on the comparison, but completely false. As for feeding KOI food to your Cichlids, just do your research.

found this in like 5 seconds..

Eating cat food probably won’t hurt your dog, though it’s best that he doesn’t eat it all the time. Cats and dogs require different diets. Cats are pure carnivores, meaning they typically eat nothing but meat, while dogs are omnivorous, meaning that they eat some plant materials along with their meat.

Cat diets are made primarily of meat and meat products, so in the long run they can be too rich for dogs and can cause digestive problems. They are also denser in calories than dog diets, so they can lead to obesity in dogs. Because of the additional fat and calories, cat food often tastes better to dogs than dog food does, so you may have to keep an eye on your dog to make sure he doesn’t indulge in the kitty kibbles.

By the way, while cat food is generally okay for dogs, dog diets lack essential nutrients that cats need to stay healthy, so cats can’t live on dog food. Overall, it’s safest to feed your pets the kind of food formulated to be healthiest for their specific species.

fishman09 wrote:found this in like 5 seconds..

Eating cat food probably won’t hurt your dog, though it’s best that he doesn’t eat it all the time. Cats and dogs require different diets. Cats are pure carnivores, meaning they typically eat nothing but meat, while dogs are omnivorous, meaning that they eat some plant materials along with their meat.

Cat diets are made primarily of meat and meat products, so in the long run they can be too rich for dogs and can cause digestive problems. They are also denser in calories than dog diets, so they can lead to obesity in dogs. Because of the additional fat and calories, cat food often tastes better to dogs than dog food does, so you may have to keep an eye on your dog to make sure he doesn’t indulge in the kitty kibbles.

By the way, while cat food is generally okay for dogs, dog diets lack essential nutrients that cats need to stay healthy, so cats can’t live on dog food. Overall, it’s safest to feed your pets the kind of food formulated to be healthiest for their specific species.

I tell you what, you feed your pets what you want and I will feed mine what I want. In feeding my prize possessions (my fish) I do tons of research and comparisons. I talk to lots of individuals in the hobby that have done very well with their Cichlids. Then I take what I have learned and the info that I have gathered, and I make a decision. Do I feed NLS? Yes. Do I feed Omega1? Yes. Do I feed Hikari? Yes. Do I feed freeze dried? Yes. Do I feed some types of KOI food? Yes. Because I have done the researching myself, and I have made the decision to feed my fish these foods.

Thank you for your concerns, but I really dont care what you think.

Hey stop all the bickering.... I did not want to start a food debate here.

And if I want to feed my fish cat food.... wait a minute that wasnt what I meant.

Really I was just concerned that the Pearsei being a noticeable plant eater (take a look at its teeth) would suffer by eating a typical high protein pellet. Like I said the Omega One kelp pellet is awesome but even now my fish at 7" wants larger than a 2mm and Omega One does not make one. Just like NLS not making a floating 3mm. Right now that Pearsei gobbles up 3mm sinking NLS like its nothing so Im sure going to the larger 4.5mm floating is soon coming.

But for now I have the Kelp pellets and NLS 2mm to feed the incoming Pearsei. All is well.

Should try some of kens stuff. Has a good variability in pellet size and my fish love them. He has a veg pellets that i was thinking about trying.

DMD - if you are happy with the Omega line, and are looking to add even more aquatic plant matter than what is found in NLS, perhaps try the Veggie Rounds. That should resolve the size issue for you, and IMHO would be FAR better for your pearsei than feeding a bunch of soybean meal, wheat & corn to your fish. (koi food)

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Kens is alright, omega one is a step to the side, but to really give your fish everything they need, feed NLS. It is made up of the most usable types of both protein and plant matter. There is a reason it does so well with fish like trophs, as well as marine, and pscivore fishes. I feed it to my live bearers, my shell dwellers, and my sand sifters, my parachromis, my amps etc etc. Its simply the best. A lot of foods will do just fine for a lot fish, but only one takes pride in saying it is an all around great staple for almost all fish. I used to feed all kinds of foods, but I finally figured out why NLS was best. Like madness said, do the research... or better yet, look at the results. You have seen bettys fish, if you have seen any of my posts on mfk within the last year or so, then you have seen my fish. I feed NLS only. And I have had great results. But don't take my word for it. Take a picture of your fish now, switch to an only NLS diet, and take a picture in a mounth. I think you will find the results shocking. I did.

By the way, this is an example of me being around, but not logged on. Good luck D.

Oh, and on the topic of how much protein..... its more a matter of how usable the protein is. You can talk to a health nut, body builder or nutritionist on the matter. As a matter of fact, Forest is a personal trainer and is in excelent health/shape... I am sure he can give some examples of benificial proteins vs fattier proteins in humans. And taking that same bit of info (not comparing fish to humans, just protein is protein) you can use it in deciding what food is best for your fish. Sorry for talking, and no I haven't been drinking

Good to hear from you VW.

Ive already been feeding some NLS and I did notice an improvement in color. My bifa really colored up nice on the stuff. I just was not sure about the Pearsei with its plant based diet needs. But if my mix is OK with the NLS as the staple then Im just going to continue what Im doing.

Sounds about right. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm always around, just never logged on, and not nearly as much as I used to be. I have to much fish keeping to do to stay up with the latest peeing contests that most forums have turned in to, Kinda stinks. I'm still around, and have more tanks and more species of fish. At least half of the regulars on hear have number, and anyone can shoot me a text, call or email anytime. And I will happily chat fish for hours.

Im not trying to stir anything up here, but I have also been using Xtreme Aquatic Foods in my mix and they have an interesting comparison chart on many different foods as to the ingredients list. I am not commenting one way or another on it. Just some interesting info that all.

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look under "Manufactured Fish Foods Comparison Chart"

I have heard good things about xtream. It seems to be in the same catagory as kens, and omega one. Its better then hakari, tetra, etc.

Im not saying it is better than anything but I do like the fact that the "Big Fella" 3mm stick does not sink like a rock, it is a semi-floating/sinking type. It floats for a moment and then slowly sinks and almost does not settle to the bottom. This gives a bit more time for the fish to eat it before the bottom feeders get to it.

and they have an interesting comparison chart on many different foods as to the ingredients list.

The only thing interesting about that, is that a company would be ignorant enough (or perhaps desperate enough?) to actually post that crap on their website. Seriously, I could have written a far more accurate comparison chart back when I was in Jr High, which was almost 40 yrs ago. lol

This "chart" and the info on it was brought up by Mo last year on MFK, you might be interested in some of the comments made in that previous discussion. I jumped in at post #23, and provided yet another link back to the person who originally put this chart together.

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Clearly Mo's friend barely understands the basic principles involving fish nutrition, feeding, label regulations, etc. It was a VERY poorly written document and IMO no company (are you reading this Ricky Biro?) should have attached their name to that, or used it in any form in an attempt to make their product appear more superior than others.

and a link back to my discussion with the author of that chart .......

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Rather obvious that Mo's pal didn't understand half of what I was saying.

Wow not trying to start a food debate here. It is just an interesting comparison of the first three ingredients. If you were looking at a food label (which I do quite a bit being diabetic) if I saw the first couple ingredients as being sugar, corn syrup, white flour or such I would think twice about buying it. Granted more info is necessary than this to understand the full nutritional value but it is just a start.

I really dont want an MFK food debate here on our nice website.

What food debate? You posted the link to the chart, not I.

I was simply pointing out that it was a VERY poorly put together document, by somoene who clearly didn't know what the hell he was talking about ...... period, end of story.

I wasn't debating about food. Whoa ........

RD wonder where you rank omega one next to all the others of course NLS is tops on your list. I love the ingredient list on omega one, its short sweet and has lots of whole fish ingredients which i like.

Different subject for a different thread. The OP on this thread is not asking that question.

Thank you.

The main reason for posting the chart was in regard to the topic that I had brought up about plant based foods.

Some of the foods listed on that list that have names that would indicate a plant base as being the primary ingredient dont really have it. Example: Ocean Nutrition Cichlid Veggie, first three ingredients: Plankton, Wheat germ, Salmon fillets. So where is the Veggie as advertised in the name. Plankton is a tough one to call veggie because of its biomass variability. Unless they meant to use Phytoplankton as the first ingredient.

The chart also showed something interesting for those who looked at it carefully. Xtreme (the ones who made the chart) said something about their own product. Notice the second product is *Fish Meal. If you go to the bottom the the page the *footnote reads: *Fish Meal of an unknown source. So what does that tell you? If you dont know where your product comes from.... see where Im going with that one? How can you talk up the "quality" of your product when your not sure of the source of the ingredients.

So this poorly put together document does not really give good credibility to Xtreme but to go with my original topic it is interesting to see foods that make you believe they are plant based by their names really only contain a minor amount.

Xtreme didn't make the chart.

The person who made the chart originally posted it on eastcoastcichlids in Aug of 2010, which I linked to previously.

I'm glad that you found it interesting .........