Cichlid hierarchy

Having added the new Pearsei to my 210g tank recently (thanks madness!) I have noticed a lot of interaction with the hierarchy or 'pecking order' going on. My reserved, quiet new-comer has made a little niche for itself by standing up to the freddy that thought it could bully it. (I use 'it' because Im not sure of the sex of the Pearsei) Its almost strange that some fish act as if there is no pecking order and others try to move up it. Sometimes it does not even make sense to me. As an example my smallest growout bifa who gets picked on by everyone will consistently stand up to the bleekeri who is one of the meaner fish in the tank and higher up the ranks...

So of course I got to wondering and started to 'google' the subject and found all kind of info on it. I did enjoy this read: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Anyone else have any interesting fish 'pecking order' things they have seen?
The only other one that was really strange to me was Zerc's psycho convict....

Very interesting read. I have quite a bit of that going on in my tanks, but for the most part, they all know who is boss and so on down the line.

There is always that one fish that never gets challenged but just defends his area with a few flares at the invaders of his space. But when it gets pushed to far, will challenge and defend off even the alpha male. Kind of makes me wonder that maybe this fish is the alpha male, but is a passive alpha male and all the other males know this, and the male going around the tank making sure the other males are in their place, is actually 2nd in command.

I have a meaner fish now, it is the meanest fish i have ever seen... next time you are in the area stop by and ill show you. It will bite anything you put in the tank, even though it is less than 2" long!

It been funny to watch the pearsei fitting in. It would let the freddy nip at it and chase it and then it went toe to toe and lip locked and proved to be the dominant fish. Now this 'gentle' fish will give a little chase away to the freddy to remind it as to who is boss. This pearsei however still has not confronted the bleekeri who takes jabs at it. The bleekeri and freddy have a nightly face off with no lip lock... so when is the pearsei going to realize it does not have to take it from the bleekeri?

I miss my big midas, alpha male with a cool, easygoing way about him.

Zerc wrote:I have a meaner fish now, it is the meanest fish i have ever seen... next time you are in the area stop by and ill show you. It will bite anything you put in the tank, even though it is less than 2" long!

I cant understand it. Your a nice guy with a nice family and you end up with the meanest fish on the planet....

I had a midas, I think it had rabies.


i want to see pics of your tank!

Here is my raging beast, my daughter named it "ice cream".

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I really need to update some pics!

Ive heard those little clowns can be pretty hard core. (Basically a saltwater convict )

yea its a maroon clown. luckily it can't bite very hard, it bites me 3-4 times whenever I feed the tang...

your turn, pics!

So my theory on this has just been shot.... My freddy is either really stupid or brave. He continues to challenge the pearsei and has taken to trying to mess with the hoga. The hoga is totally calm and puts him in his place. This freddy is just a little trouble maker, this is beyond territory issues. He just does not play well with others.

Well my latest tank issue falls under this category of my original post, so here goes.

My stock has changed a bit since this post with all the trouble makers gone, so I thought. I have/had a firemouth and a argentea in my mix that are both very small but seemed to be just fine. This has been over three weeks and no issues. Woke up to find the firemouth beat on like nobody's business. He was getting chased down by the bifa who was non stop attacking it. The argentea who was getting chased by the firemouth was also nailing the fish and biting and tearing it up. I pulled the firemouth and put him in my 56g to see if it will heal but it does not look good. So what would cause these guys to just snap and go on a killing spree?

Poor firemouth

no clue, but wondering the exact same thing..... the midas i got from you was growing quickly and acting as peaceful as a cichlid can with all of my other fish(been together for a little more than a week). Long story short: he was perfect yesterday morning, when I got back yesterday evening from a christmas party he was floating at the top of the tank without eyes or a stomach.....it makes me sad as I really liked that fish.

strange thing is i have two lyonsi growouts in that tank that are half the size of the midas and they don't even have a scratch on them


poor midas

DMD123 wrote:Well my latest tank issue falls under this category of my original post, so here goes.

My stock has changed a bit since this post with all the trouble makers gone, so I thought. I have/had a firemouth and a argentea in my mix that are both very small but seemed to be just fine. This has been over three weeks and no issues. Woke up to find the firemouth beat on like nobody's business. He was getting chased down by the bifa who was non stop attacking it. The argentea who was getting chased by the firemouth was also nailing the fish and biting and tearing it up. I pulled the firemouth and put him in my 56g to see if it will heal but it does not look good. So what would cause these guys to just snap and go on a killing spree?

Poor firemouth

It could have just been the Bifa. Once a fish is weak and cant defend itself, it is fair game with all the fish. They all sense the weak fish, and natures way of getting rid of the weak is to kill it. It may also be that the FM just wasnt happy or feeling well, and the other fish took advantage of that.

Hope it pulls through.

lloyd378 wrote:no clue, but wondering the exact same thing..... the midas i got from you was growing quickly and acting as peaceful as a cichlid can with all of my other fish(been together for a little more than a week). Long story short: he was perfect yesterday morning, when I got back yesterday evening from a christmas party he was floating at the top of the tank without eyes or a stomach.....it makes me sad as I really liked that fish.

strange thing is i have two lyonsi growouts in that tank that are half the size of the midas and they don't even have a scratch on them
poor midas

Same thing could be the issue here. Sorry to here about the loss.

The firemouth can barely hold himself up but none of the Midas fry go near him. Ive seen the bifa nip at the silver dollars on occasion but then again so has every other fish in the tank including the Pearsei during feeding. Pretty sure the bifa was the culprit. Did notice the 'shy' argentea getting in with the big boys and eating with them this morning. Apparently proud of himself.

Sorry lloyd, that was a colorful midas. It would have looked good grown out.

madness wrote:
There is always that one fish that never gets challenged but just defends his area with a few flares at the invaders of his space. But when it gets pushed to far, will challenge and defend off even the alpha male. Kind of makes me wonder that maybe this fish is the alpha male, but is a passive alpha male and all the other males know this, and the male going around the tank making sure the other males are in their place, is actually 2nd in command.

I have this with my Maingano's....the dominant male just keeps everyone from his territory and the 2nd in command makes sure all the other males keep their place. I've even seen the dominant and 2nd in command "dance" with one another but not hurt one another...its a strange and amazing relationship. I started thinking the 2nd in command was a female but I am sure its a male. I have seen him mating on a number of occasions with other females.

But I have also witnessed the "weakened" fish situation...as soon as you have a fish in a weakened state the other fish "sense" it and start to pick on the weaker one. Removal is the only solution. I have had success with removal and reintroduction when the weakened fish is well (usually switching up the whole tank and watching diligently for a couple of weeks for aggression)...most of the times they have done well, sometimes not and I've had to remove them again and switch things up. Having a few tanks helps.

Sorry for your losses though.

Well decided to continue on with some recent tank issues besides the firemouth.

In my current ranks the male hoga is top dog. I do have some concerns with his aggression. Most of the times is purely in the heat of feeding. My female Pearsei out sizes him by quite a bit but when feeding sometimes the hoga will come up from underneath and bite on the Pearsei, usually in the belly area. It has nipped on her to the point of some scale removal. I am not sure what his issue is with her but Im getting tired of it.

Oh the fun of trying to get the perfect mix of fish.

I think i found the culprit to the death of the midas.... i think the salvini may have done it. he is starting to pick some fights in the tank tonight (most he won't win) and he is also displaying a lot more color than normal. just hope he knows when to say when (my larger fish may not enjoy his new attitude)

The little salvini is just trying to find its place in the pecking order. Funny how some will just accept their place and others are ambitious and want to rule the tank.

Ok I like the hoga, but am tired of it biting on the Pearsei. The Pearsei is a sneaky girl and when it sees a pellet has fallen on the gravel, it goes after it. The hoga thinks it owns the entire middle of the tank and ends up biting at her even though it is a food item he does not like. I am afraid if I take him out the bifa will them start to act up.

Should I worry about the hoga aggression? Seems mostly food/feeding related.

I wouldnt worry just yet. He is young and dumb still.

He thinks she is a threat. The girl can eat but she does not go after the 3mm Xtreme stuff he likes. She is a pig and goes for the floating 4.5mm NLS, Hikari food sticks and all the small floating stuff. She is a smart one and knows where to food is at and chows down. The hoga is a bit dumb still and only goes after the few sinkers. The hoga overall is not bad, just when food is in the tank, but I wish he would stop with the biting.

I just moved my salvini out to my 55 with the firemouth, and a few other fin nippers. my 125 is peaceful again!

My little firemouth is still alive and looking like its healing. Still not eating but swimming upright and no one is messing with him.

He must still be in the 56 if no one is messing with him? Have you tried to see if he will eat treats (like frozen bloodworms)? I know that is usually what gets my fish eating.

On a separate note, i got the bleekeri back. He apparently picked a fight with a trimac, and the trimac wasn't very kind in return. He is now recouping in my 55, but he is eating so he isn't as bad as your firemouth, though his lip looks funny as if he has a lip ring.

Yeah, still in the 56g. I dont think he will make it in the big tank. I think the bifa has a death wish for him. It took days for the firemouth to even swim upright. So I am pretty happy its swimming around normally at this point. It took the kind of beating that most fish dont come back from.

On a similar topic, my pearsei has been acting really strange. Very submissive toward the hoga. Not even trying to sneak a bite of food. There are no visible issues with her but she is acting strange and not being her piggy like self and kind of shy and hiding a lot.

Well something is officially weird. My pearsei is really afraid of the hoga and also the bifa. They are not obviously chasing her or anything. She has overnight turned into a different fish. I awoke this morning to big gouges on her side. Not like any other fish got to her but maybe she spooked and got hurt on the FX5 filter intakes. She is not eating in the same way she was.... just little bites here and there, not going to the surface to feed. All the while you can tell she has her eye on the hoga. If it even swims in a little way toward her she turns to hide. What happened?

I would either pull the hoga, or pull her to heal. I'm noticing the Sam thing with my younger hoga. He needs to be knocked down a peg or two. Put the hoga in a bucket or a very small tank, keep the temp around 70, and melafix and no light. I have heard some say they use it to help mellow the fish out. He needs to be put in time out basically.

I will try a little time out and see. Not sure if the bifa will then step up and be a jerk.

OK I pulled the hoga out. I could not just bucket him, so he is in a net in the 56g for now. Im interested to see if the pearsei behavior changes. Also interested to see what the bifa decides to do. Measured Mr. Hoga when I caught him and he is 6", just being a jerky teenager I guess.

I would just find a rubbermaid container and put him in that. Install a sponge filter, and your good to go. No heater, no food for a while, no lights. I know this sounds a bit cruel, but it has worked numerous times for me. My male bifa is about to have it done to him.

I had a Grammode that was an issue, I did this to him and then gave him a 13" midas tank mate. The Grammode hid a lot, and after 3 weeks or so, I put the Grammode back into the main tank, he was a perfect citizen from there on.

Both my male Hoga and Bifa, may spend some time with my 13" red Devil.

Its funny how I never really had these issues with my old midas. I think it might be that when it was young it had a breeding pair of convicts in the tank that tormented him. It was always calm with other cichlids.

I think we attribute too much human emotion to fish..... this time out thing just does not seem like a permanent solution. Will it really 'fix' this aggressive behavior? Will see.

The pearsei has not noticed the hoga is gone yet, still kind of spooked. The bifa scares it a bit right now, but I did notice a little pushing it away which means it is not letting itself be dominated by the bifa. I really miss the old pearsei, this is a totally different fish.

I agree that we (I) tend humanize our fish. It's hard to watch when our tanks aren't as peaceful as we like them to be. I have been known to give my fish timeouts, or allowed them to spend time with more aggressive cichlids in order to teach them a lesson.... I am guessing that I do this because it is too hard to allow my fish to live by the law of the jungle, "kill or be killed".

You mentioned that the pearsei still doesn't realize the hoga is gone. You might try adding some other fish to the tank (not to the point of overstocking but maybe to the point where you had it when I first stopped by) to snap porkey out of her shiness and to let her figure out that her place is at the top of the pyramid. adding more fish might (but could also backfire) also help in dispersing some of the aggression when you put the hoga back in .....I know that's what I have done in the past to help out my skittish fish and that is also how I run my "timeout tank", which is smaller than my show tank but also has more fish, and thus less aggression. but who knows, and good luck

The recent changes I made (no True parrot & gold sev anymore) upset the balance that was in the tank. The number three fish was the hoga. He then found himself the alpha fish. I feel there is some stress to that position because other fish are there to challenge his position. Even though the pearsei is very peaceful in nature she would come into his territory and eat/steal food from the bottom. This was food he did not even like, but I guess it was a challenge never the less. I want a good stock in the tank but really I dont want just cichlids or even to add many more.

I did feel good that when I fed them a little while ago the pearsei at least nibbled on a pellet with the bifa nearby and she did not run even though he was watching her spit it out and taking it back in. She did not back away or even pay attention to him. So she might just come back around.

DMD,

If you get hard up and would like to ad a couple of fish to change the tank dynamics, I can lend you a 6 inch blackbelt (that I've been thinking about moving), and you can have (free-forever) three zonatus I have in a separate tank that are between 3 and 4 inches. None of these fish were in that video I took. But all are peaceful, and tend to school together a bit. Not sure if you are even thinking about going this route, but thought that I would offer anyways. I'd hate to see your tank in disarray, and pork chop depressed.

Ive had a blackbelt before. Ive had a zo before too. If anything I will downsize my stock by the end of January.

I have some hard decisions as to who to keep and what not and I want to get it figured out soon. It will just be some piece of mind for me to have my tanks on the less stocked side while I go on vacation for two weeks. I have someone staying at the house and caring for feeding once a day (small portion), but they wont do any water changes or anything like that. So it will be easier to not have full stocking during that time.

Alright now Im worried. She is not eating. She acts as if interested and suck it in and spits it back out. This is with every food I offer. She used to eat everything. She now has been showing aggression toward the bifa, opening her mouth toward it and causing it to back down and swim away. She also is doing this weird head shake thing. Is this some sort of breeding behavior? Not sure what is going on, I remember my male midas doing that on occasion.....

Any ideas?

Parasites possibly. before she just ignores the food, soak some food in some epson salts & Metro paste, let the food absorb the med for about 30 min, then feed. Also drop some epson salt in the aquarium near her, she will grab it thinking its food. Drop a few tablespoons on her. If she can get it in her system it will help.

Agree with madness. Soak pellets in a 3% Epsom salt solution and let her eat those up. Don't do for more than 5 days as then the laxative effect will start doing more harm than good and they wont be able to absorb the nutrients as well. Ive been using this periodically with my Beani as a precautionary measure to possible intestinal issues. 3 weeks in and i still have all 6 and they're growing like true monsters.

I figured parasites. I did add the new firemouth and argentea. Also the stress from being bullied.

She wont eat and she wont take the Epsom salt in so I decided to careful and dose the whole tank with regular salt and Parasite Guard. I have seen no stringy poo so I am not sure if it is internal parasites or gill flukes at this point. The meds should do the trick and I do think I am catching it very early. She act very peppy like she wants to eat so Im hopeful for a quick recovery.

I use Parasite Guard by Tetra whenever I have a stubborn situation. I have had great success with this product. Good luck.

Thanks. I made the same mistake last time with the new fish in an established tank.

This time I think I am catching it very early.