What am I missing?

I get home to a dead fish... the larger of the two red devils. So I break out my water test kit and everything reads good, all at the bottom where you want it.

I am not overstocked at this point at all. The fish started to get reclusive two days ago was not eating like it was at first and then dead. The other smaller red devil has also been acting strange. During this time Ive had trouble with the small zo not eating along with the bocourti being picky. It really has me paranoid like I am missing something. The other fish seem to be thriving and eating well. Did I not kill the plague that hit my tank? What am I missing?

Examining the body I saw it looked pretty beat on, but I have not seen any outright violence in the tank. The new zo started to get pretty assertive with others but in no way worried me. So do I have a killer or was he bit on after death?

Any ideas? If I go through another batch of deaths I really am afraid I will just drain the stupid thing and sell it.

geez that sucks are you salting the water at all when you do changes?

could it be something in the tank? i would stick them all in a bucket drain the tank clean everything including media and filters and re-cycle the tank. its a lot of work but i cant think of anything else. was it possibly aggression related? i think we need to do an autopsy and get to the bottom of this

I have not added salt since the last plague issues. The tank was cleaned very well at that point including the filter media cleaned in boiling water. I have done regular water changes since and used seachem stability to replant the good bacteria. Plus the water tests dont lie, no ammonia spikes no bad stuff going on.

The PH was steady at 7, which it always is. The temp is steady at 80. Just bothers me that the last outbreak began with the same thing. The argentea stopped eating, then was dead and the whole tank infected.

I have taken out the large pieces of wood, gravel vac every time I do water changes. In fact I did my 50% change tonight and there was not a noticeable amount of waste to even clean out. My tank is clean.

Also should add I have an 18w Turbo Twist UV sterilizer in the tank.

maybe its the uv malfunctioning. in a freshwater tank i dont see the point of a uv steriliver

Wow, that really sucks, but I hope you don't sell your tank because of it.

Are those the same silver dollars you had before or are all the fish new? My thought would be that the silver dollars could be carrying whatever caused the problem the first time around and the new fish are being exposed that way.

I hope you can get it figured out soon. I know how discouraging it must be.

The 3 silver dollars are survivors. I recently had 2 out that school have issues that resulted in them getting put down. These 3 are eating and show no signs of issues. I was afraid they could be carriers but with how many meds went through the tank and the clean up it got, I really thought it was done. With the weird mix of some fish ding well and others acting strange, I just cant figure this one out.

When I had the large branches of wood, I did have issue with a slime that was covering the wood and covering the glass. When I cleaned my filters out it was all over in them too. All this is out of the tank and the tank has not had any of these issues since. Not that the wood itself was the problem but the areas underneath would collect food and waste that were not easy to clean up and the wood helped to promote some of the bacterial growth.

The UV is still new and it is on. The effective UV life per bulb is one year. The UV does help with free floating algae which can cause a green tint to the water. Mine is crystal clear. It is not a high enough wattage to kill all the bad organisms but enough to clarify the water.

I think aggression is pretty much ruled out. The tank is huge for how small everyone is and there are a tons of places that are out of sight of other fish. I have lots of tall plastic plants going right now for cover.

The body was kind of beat on though. The fish was alive when I went to work and the wife had a friend over and sat in front of the tank during the morning hours. Whatever happened occurred from 11am to 5pm sometime.

The RD was top dog in the tank, the only one who might have taken him on would be the new zo. He has been assertive with food and inquisitive toward the other fish to see where he fits in the pecking order. He just has not shown that killer instinct, otherwise he would have taken out smaller fish esp the other smaller zo.

So I am leaning toward the plague still lingers in the tank maybe through the silver dollars just like what Betty is thinking.

wow that sucks!

I keep a dose of salt in my tank now, just to preemptively kill anything bad...

Call me in the a.m. or tonight before 10. I have an idea.

Any news? What do you think it is madness?

Hey madness I will call later today. Got some stuff I have to do in the morning.

I still do not see any real aggression issues in the tank. The Red Devil was the chase you all over the tank on a whim fish. The others all act like they are tolerant of each other with barely a flare here or there. The new pleco is one that is a bit of a meat eater, but he hides during the day and no other fish looks like its been attacked. My last pleco got a hold of a fish or two at night and they had fish "hicky's" on them. Nothing like that showing up here.

The fish not eating is strange because even the frozen treats like brine shrimp are not attacked by the small zo, bocourti and small red devil. The other fish all eagerly eat the frozen treats. Been using garlic guard to thaw the food out in to make it more appealing to the fish.

So my staple foods are Omega One small floating pellet, Xtreme Pee Wee sinking and Tetra Color crisp.

In frozen treats its brine shrimp, beef heart (used sparingly), mysis shrimp, blood worms all thawed out in garlic guard.

maybe too many frozen treats. i would never feed beef heart as i dont think there intestinal tracts are.meants to handle red meat.

Studys have shown long term use of beef heart is bad esp in older fish. The fact is it can and does put size on fish at a pretty good rate. I bought one package and am using it until its done and will not continue with it. The frozen blister pack will probably last a good 6 months at the rate I feed it. For young fish it will not do any lasting damage. Kind of like eating McDonalds hamburgers once in a while. It is just being used to get a bit of size on the fish.

I have only been doing treats every three days or so. I will mix a little bit of all the treats together in a shot glass (thanks for the idea vw)with some garlic guard, thaw and then drain off the water and feed a little at a time so that they are not overwhelmed with a ton of food hitting the tank all at once and having a lot of it get missed and settle into the gravel.

I was going to say I know there is a lot of controversy about the use of beef heart but in moderation with young fish, it really does put size on. I also came from a time in fish keeping (the 80's - yeah I'm old!) where this was used very heavy in fish diets, esp for cichlids. I know its not a good long term food.

Was the uv sterilizer in operation when you treated the tank with medications? (Or did you treat in a hospital tank, I don't remember?) I read somewhere that sterilizers should be turned off when using medications.

id rather spend the 5$ spent on beef heart on more water which will always make your fish grow faster than take a risk feeding red meat to a fish. all my fish in my 240 are growing at an incha month and all i feed is pellets. i just change 300 gallons on it weekly which is making them grow.

My idea was something Betty brought up. Does he have electricity leaking into his tank. But he has no electrical cords in his tank, so still not sure.

I suspected my heater was leaking when I had my problem. It was a submersible, in-tank heater.

Betty the UV was turned off during any treatment, so it could work properly.

madness, I will check for stray electrical. But I feel in my case very unlikely. I use two of the Hydor in-line heaters and two FX5's. I removed the powerhead out of my tank and the only other thing would be an air pump.

Most of the time the stray electrical stems from a faulty heater or power head that are inside the tank. I will never the less still check this to eliminate all possibilities.

I started a little salt in the water, 1/4 cup this morning. I will gradually add more as the day progresses.

I have never used salt in a freshwater aquarium in 18 years of fishkeeping. I hear really good things about it, but have never used it. There are a few writes up on disolved minerals being benificial, but the amount of salt found in freshwater lakes, river etc. is very minimal. I am sure I am going to hear a large quantity of stories where people have used salt to treat all kinds of things. And im not saying it dident help, but as far as I understand, salt has very little positive effect. I know you take very good care of your fish and im really scratching my head here. But I would have gotten rid of the silver dollars, as anything they hav or had could easil be contracted to your new fish. I am sorry your going through this crap again.

One thing I and any seasoned hobbyist knows the best "cure" is prevention, and the best prevention is perfect water. I have seen your tanks and they are so well kept its insane. I really dont know what it could be. Your fish' immune systems have to be in the best shape with water quality like yours. Sorry I cant be much help. With the best of intentions, and in high hopes for you my friend.

Thanks vw,

madness and I were talking about this today and I am a total freak about water changes and gravel vac all the time. In the three years I had my big midas, I never had a single issue. That was in a 120g tank. So you would think with a larger tank and higher volume of water it would be better. Nope, not for me apparently.

An aspect I had not considered was something madness had spoke with mel about. When you are dealing with bacterial issues in the tank, try NOT to use a dechlorinater. Say what, that goes against everything we read and are taught. Well yes it not comfortable for the fish but these same things.... help kill bacteria I think I might try it at this point, cant really do any harm. In fact I remember some study where they did not use it and the fish became accustomed to it. Dont remember where I saw that but somewhere in all my research

i would rather take everything out and wash them and empty the tank if you wanted to get rid of the bacteria. i dont like the idea of no conditioner. just seems iffy to me

fishman09 wrote:i would rather take everything out and wash them and empty the tank if you wanted to get rid of the bacteria. i dont like the idea of no conditioner. just seems iffy to me

I havent used conditioner for about a year now. Just an FYI. I dont do large enough water changes to warrant it. If for whatever reason I need to make a large water change, then I will use some. Otherwise, I dont use. But thats just me.

hmmmm maybe something ill try. cause i do multiple small changes along with a couple big changes a week. still i know that prime is working for me and my fish so "if it aint broke dont fix it" comes to mind. i do wanna try safe cause i go through the 500 gallon bottle of prime weekly which gets a little spendy

fishman09 wrote:hmmmm maybe something ill try. cause i do multiple small changes along with a couple big changes a week. still i know that prime is working for me and my fish so "if it aint broke dont fix it" comes to mind. i do wanna try safe cause i go through the 500 gallon bottle of prime weekly which gets a little spendy

Agreed, but if I used it on every water change, I would go broke. LOL I did some research and asked a lot of the hobbyists that have been doing this far longer than I. I do use it if I use even just a smidgen of warm water to refill my tanks.

so is there a difference in warm water and cold water changes in the need to use conditioner??

Yes, for me anyway. The Prime gets rid of metals in the water, but I use Hikari's Ultimate. It does a better job of getting rid of more metals. Depending on the age of the H2O tank, the tank gets old and toxic metals leach out into the water. I ran into an issue of HITH a year ago, and had my water tested. The levels of different metals coming out of my tank were insane. Obviously not at the levels to harm us, but definitely enough to cause stress in the fish. So that is why you hear me say that I do cold water changes only. But on a rare occasion I will use warm water, and treat it.

I use water treatment every time so this was a new thought to me to not use it. I change out a lot of water each week and go through a fair amount of Prime, so switching over to safe will be a good move for me also.

Looking at my routine I could easily cut my usage by not treating every time. On a week where I just am not in the mood to work on my tanks it still gets three water changes: Mon 25%, Wed 25%, Fri 50%, and I would treat the entire tank like the Prime instructions said. I could just not use it on the smaller 25% changes and be just fine.

On a week where I really maintain my tanks I just will add in a Tue 15% (just for minor food waste removal) and another 40-50% on Sunday. The additional large water change on Sunday is done if I have been home over the weekend and have fed heavy because of falling for all those little begging faces.

This is what gets me wondering what I am missing. This water is pristine in my tanks. I am very dedicated to the tank maintenance.

its those silver dollars i bet. i bet they are carriers and developed an immunity or something and the stess in the other fish from the move may have weakened the immune system enough in a couple fish for them to get infected.

I kind of think that is the case. But some of the fish are doing exceptionally well and not having any issues. Most were introduced at the same time. Out of the first batch of fish from madness the ones that seem to succumb were the zo, red devil and bocourti (these three still alive but not eating well). The synspilum and hoga are doing very well. The second batch of fish introduced two weeks later was a zo and lyonsi which are doing very well also.

I think I will end up losing the small zo, red devil and bocourti at this rate. This thing that has hit my tank shows itself with fish not eating and these three are the ones with issues. When fish do not go for the frozen treats its time to worry.

I got some Omega One marine pellets and flake with garlic and have been feeding this to see if the non eaters would get interested but nothing. I may try some medicated food to protect the ones I already have that seem healthy.

have u thought of removing the ones you think are sick to reduce the disease in the tank?

fishman09 wrote:have u thought of removing the ones you think are sick to reduce the disease in the tank?

We are on the same mind there! As I was doing my water change I decided to remove the small zo and red devil. I have decided to put them down so as to not pass along anything to the others. I am going to see how the bocourti does but I just might remove him too. Since these are the ones showing the symptoms I will just take them out and see how the others do.

DMD123 - Question for you. This is not the cause of the two red devils, but as per electrical charge mentioned. Did they have cloudy eyes? I only bring this up cuz recently I set up an additional tank and had a faulty heater. The current blinded a 4" P. Polleni which later perished a day later. I was only able to feel the electrical current with the finger that had a cut. No where else when I stuck both arms in. It was a painful shock only at the cut area. I would of never known this was happening other than the physical appearance of the spawning pair.

But reading all the prior posts clearly, rather than just skimming b4 what I stated above. It does sound like a disease.

I keep a grounded wire in my tank for just that reason!

Also, madness' theory about contamination via hot water heater is really interesting, I'm glad i use prime every WC, but i think i might start doing cold water changes...

No cloudy eyes on the fish. I think I am still dealing with the bacterial infection that head hit the tank. I do not have heaters in the tank. I use the hydor in-line heaters so I doubt it is electrical current in the water but I will test. I am going to borrow a meter from work and test.

So small update. I decided to do some of my small mid week water changes with no Prime. These are only around 30 gallons. Well guess what, no issues with this small of an amount. Fish dont even act weird about it. My large 50% changes I will still use Prime.

I also feel my Silver dollars are carriers of the bacterial issue I had. I put down all the sick fish except one, the bocourti. He still looks like he might be able to pull through, but is not eating. A symptom that all the sick fish did have in common.

I am going to treat the tank with Seachem kanaplex in the water and a mix of Seachem kanaplex, focus and garlic guard in food. The kanaplex was recommended for bacterial issues when fish stop eating, and I read some good reviews on it.

The focus is a bonding agent to help the kanaplex mix into the food and the garlic guard is to make the food more appealing. Hopefully this combo can get the silver dollars cleaned out and any other fish healed. I have such high hopes for this bocourti, it is quite the looker and gets along with everyone. But when these guys dont eat you know there is a problem because they have a rep of being

good luck with the new treatment plan

Thanks!

At this point I am waiting for the meds to come in. The poor bocourti has not been eating and has a thin look to him. But he still has that active look about him like he still has pep so good sign.

I bought some of this a while back, and has worked great on my Festae
fry for internal parasites. Dont know why I didnt remember this.

Each link is just a different page to the same website.

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Thanks for the links.

I feel as if I am dealing with internal bacterial infection. The kanaplex has had reviews that mentioned fish that stopped eating. The product is also supposed to be absorbed through the fishes skin so even if they dont eat it helps. This can be mixed into their food with the combo of focus and garlic guard.

I hope this next round of meds snaps the bocourti out of it. This is my test subject so to speak. All the other fish are eating and act healthy so they could be carriers. The fact that even recently I had issues with very hardy fish just makes me feel the problem is in the tank still. I treated for parasites and fungus but I dont think I really hit the root of the problems just the symptoms.

After this round of treatments we will see how things go. The silver dollars have not been the same with the large midas gone. They are skittish and annoying so they may not stay.

If the Bocourtti is not eating now, IME they wont eat the medicated food either. You may have to take the fish out, use an eye dropper and force feed the guy the meds.

The medicated food is for the ones eating to make sure they get fixed. The kanaplex is supposed to get absorbed in the skin. I really dont want to stress the bocourti out by catching him and force feedeing but I might just try it.

Now that you believe to be a bacterial infection. In your opinions, will a UV Sterilizer assist greatly in prevention? I got a 36W in my 155g set up. That's why I ask. No issues thus far but sux to hear someone going through this and losing fish.

you need a high watt uv sterilizer to help with prevention, most of us have little ones, under 20w. Kills algae, but not bacteria.

I have an 18w that is used to cut down on the green water effect. I leave my light on for quite a long time and if I dont use it it will get a green tinge.

I am pretty sure my issues stem from adding wild caught fish to my tank without quarantine. All the fish were very healthy until the addition of the wild caught argentea and pearsei. In fact the rest of the fish were at least 2.5 - 3 years old. Very established fish that never had issues.

Once the fish are infected a UV wont do that much good anyway. But for prevention in my case it would not have made a difference. I should have treated all the new fish for parasites and things before they went into the main tank.

This infection is still hitting fish in the tank now. The latest zo I got now is doing the reclusive not eating thing along with the bocourti. The syspilum, hoga, lyonsi all seam healthy and eating still.

Man sorry D, wow, this is still going on. I have only had time to lightly read over alot of the posts as compared to my norm of reading everything posted. I am sorry to hear this is still happening. You still have my number, give me a call if you need anything. Really sucks bro, sorry again.

Thanks VW, just plugging along right now waiting for my kanaplex order to come in and keeping up with water changes and what not.