Bad morning

So I began my morning with the loss of my Argentea. She had been acting weird for the last two days and had stopped eating. I was just about to start medications and bam woke up to a dead fish. The pearsei has been fine, but I notice the Midas acting up also, not showing much interest in food right now. Any ideas?

I should have tested my water first, but went for a 50% water change to begin my morning. I am leaning toward an internal parasite issue. I am going to try some meds for the rest of the fish. Not sure if I will replace the Argentea with another cichlid. I have been looking for a snook but am just thinking about adding 2-3 more silver dollars and calling it done.

Sorry to hear It bro. Best way I found to treat internal parasites is prazipro soaked brine. Good luck.

That's a drag!...Good luck!

Sad cause she was a wild caught and was expensive!

Yeah, I feel your pain bro... it sucks when you lose a fish. Especially one you paid a lot for or had a long time.

That sucks 'D'. Did you notice white stringy poop before she passed, or even from the Midas? Let me know if you need any assistance.

Nothing out of the ordinary. She just stopped eating and when I went to do something about it she was dead. The midas acts normal except he seems like he has no appetite. Been keeping a close watch on everyone and have not seen anything going on. No stringy poop seen. The argentea had no wounds on her and her fins were perfect and intact. She stood up to the pearsei and he would back down so I know at least it was not any fish aggression issues.

man that sucks. that was a really gorgeous fish.... im amazed that a problem started within the last week.... went to see your stuff and it all looked okay. if anything i think it may be an overfeeding/clog issue. just my two cents. idk if there is fish laxatives.. but maybe try some?

The laxative is called Epson salt.

o alrighty then. that makes sense.

madness wrote:The laxative is called Epson salt.

Might try it-any dosage recommendations?

Treating Hexamita aka Spironucleus
Treating Hexamita aka Spironucleus with Epsom Salt Solution


]This is a rather safe way to treat any
newly imported fish, as a prophylactic, just as one would use a
de-wormer. It's not only an extremely cheap way to treat fish, the
active ingredients are readily available world-wide, and it's also much
safer than using most forms of medication. Unlike most medications,
there should be no worries about flagellates/pathogens building up a
resistance to it, and excess magnesium is easily flushed from a fishes
system. In my experience, it's very easy on fish, even very young
juvenile fish. The best part - it works! (If the fish has worms when arriving, the epsom salt solution in the feed will also help with purging any worms)

While Metronidazole has always been the drug of choice when combating
internal parasites such as hexamita and/or spironucleus, metro (or any
other [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
of medication) should never be used on a regular basis as a
prophylactic, and doing so may cause flagellates/parasites to develop a
resistance to the medication, and possibly even mutate and become super
bugs. It's also been stated by at least one researcher that excessive
use of metronidazole can cause organ damage in fish.

In fish, an excessive use of metronidazole can damage kidneys and other internal organs.(Bassleer, 1983)

Other cons with metronidazole is its solubility in water is very poor, in aquarium settings it has been [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that it can precipitate out of solution within 6-8 hours, and it can become rather expensive when treating large systems.

While doing some online research on spironucleus I came across an interesting [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that mentioned the use of Magnesium sulphate (Epsom salt) in treating internal parasites in angel fish.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

A long read (200+ pages) but the idea of using something as basic as
epsom salt to treat internal parasites in fish intrigued me, which in
turn lead me to dig deeper.


This is where it got interesting ........

The Israeli Journal of Aquaculture – Bamidgeh 57(2), 2005, 97-104.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mortality ceased with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of medicated feed (magnesium sulfate at 3% of the feed) - Hexamita salmonis.

In early June 2004, a treatment of magnesium sulfate (3% of feed for
three days) lowered the parasite load to almost undetectable levels.

In his book; Fish Disease: diagnosis and treatment, Edward J. Noga mentions treating hexamita (spironucleus) orally with Magnesium sulphate.

This is certainly encouraging news for anyone who's fish is still
eating, or begins eating after treatment with Metro. Not only does Epsom
salt assist in recovery when added directly to the aquarium (as per the
links above), but according to the research posted above it has a
deadly effect on hexamita when ingested.

Dr. Edward J. Noga, MS, DVM, is a highly respected professor of aquatic
medicine and immunology, and he has been published approx. 150 times in
related papers/journals. His lab at NC State University specializes in
the study of infectious diseases of finfish and shellfish. As a side
note for Discus keepers, Dr. Noga's book on fish disease is the book
that Andrew Soh often refers to for disease/treatment information.


Now for the treatment ......


For a 3% solution of Magnesium sulphate, add 1 level tablespoon (15
grams) magnesium sulphate to 500 milliliters of distilled water. Stir, and it's good to go.

Use an eye dropper or pipette to add to pellet [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
(or any other food that will readily absorb it), and stop dripping
water once the pellets become saturated. Use only enough water to
saturate the food, with no excess water, so that the water soluble
vitamins in the food remain intact. Feed twice a day, for 3-5 days. (I
went with 5 days)

In extreme cases, the oral solution could be administered to a fish via a
pipette.Just make sure to use a flexible tip so as not to damage the
fishes esophagus when squirting the solution down the fishes throat.
Only a small amount is required, but repeat daily until the fish is
accepting pre-soaked pellets, and continue treatment for 5 days.


My own experience with this treatment ........ so far it's proven to be a
life saver, where all other previous 'textbook' methods of treatment
for internal parasites have failed, including several days of treating
with 500mg Metro per 10 gallons, while feeding Metro soaked food at the
same time. (fish was chewing & spitting, but was eating some food
twice a day)

In less than 48 hrs of the 3% Magnesium sulphate treatment, for the
first time in 30 days the fish was no longer shedding the mucous lining
of his intestine. (white/clear feces) After 5 days of feeding the 3%
solution via pellets, the fish had made a complete recovery & was
back eating like gang busters.

Hopefully some members here will find this information useful.

This is from another site with questions regarding the same issues.
[/size]

I am doing a slow dosage of Epsom salt to see if my midas is constipated and that is why he is not eating. I found a suggested dose of 1 teaspoon per 5 gallon ratio. I have started with just enough to treat 100g. Will increase it again tomorrow, and keep an eye on him.

Thanks for the read madness. will be at it a bit.

Been watching the midas and see a little stringy poo. His mouth is looking a bit strange too. Not quite like the issues madness was having with the dovii, but it looks strange.

Just found it online, looks like the symptoms are just beginning for cottonmouth. This may have been what happened to the argentea. I had noticed a small patch on her side where it looked like she had scraped herself, it got a small touch of cotton like growth on it but soon went away with my regular water changes, so I thought nothing of it. Everything seems to fit with this fungus. I gravel vac regularly and water change also so I dont know why I have this going on in the tank.

Got melafix for the fish.

Wow this is expensive stuff if you have to treat a big tank and you use the regular stuff. I got the ultra concentrated stuff used for ponds. 16oz for $14.97 and it treats 4,800 gallons! I can get it cheaper on-line but I needed it right away so I bought it at Petsmart. Already the midas seems more active and not acting so lethargic. His mouth is still fuzzy and he wont eat but he has enough fat on him that he "can live off the land" for a while. None of the other fish have shown any issues and are eating just fine.

bummer i had some lying around. woulda been happy to pass it along. used it a lot for my bettas when they were breeding.. really increased the healing rates. i just wouldnt over do it as it has done in my tank before. i probably was a little late to the healing game.. but still did em all in. as always be careful and give em lots of fresh water. hopefully it clears up before you go on vaca this weekend. or by monday when i stop by

Hope all goes well. My Dovii issue is a form of mouth fungus. Be very careful. Salt daily water changes, and everything I read said lower tank temp to 75. The fungus grows at a more rapid rate the higher the temp.

Good luck.

Right now I am treating with the Melafix, Pimafix combo. I have not added salt yet, need to stop by the store and get some. I saw your treatment on MFK and might try a dip and see if that helps. The whole duck lip thing is kind of what I also see going on. I feel sorry for him, he has lost a lot of pep and is still not eating... I wont give up!

If you want a second opinion please call, I will gladly come by and take a look.

He does not look the same as in my avatar. Mouth is sticking out slightly, and a swelling is going on. Looks to be the same issue as in the MFK forum.

What is really irritating is that water quality is supposed to be one of the issues. I know I gravel vac and change out water regularly and so do you. So why the issue? I guess stress on the fish of some sort and then it succumbs to the bacteria.

I will say I wonder if my large piece of wood in the tank is causing some of the issues with water quality. I might take it out and bring it to my work where I can hit it with a hot water pressure washer.

I will treat for a few more days and if I still cant get it figured out, I will give you a call. Thanks for the help!

Sorry this is going on D, I wish there was something I could do, but I'm not to good with fish illness. But you have all my hope that your big guy pulls through. Keep at it man, just like madness, be persistant, and do your research. Good luck bud.

good luck getting your fish back to health

Thanks guys appreciate the encouragement!

One thing Mel mentioned and it makes a little sense. Every year at this time our local water suppliers add chemicals to our water based on the readings they get. They o this to prepare for the change in our climate. I would call your water company and ask. Grant it, its not going to help you now, but it would be nice to know if they are adding something that your not not preparing for.

As for your fish. Thats what I read also, that the bacteria that causes it comes from and grows off of rotten food. Maybe you have some under something in the tank. When I moved my driftwood in my Dovii tank, I was shocked to see the amount of decade food under it. Never would have guessed it would be there. Its like it was growing on the underside of the wood.

Are you doing daily 50%+ water changes? Add salt, 1TBL /10 gal to the tank on every water change. Not just equal to how much water you put in, but equal to the size of tank.

Let me know.

I have not taken the wood out and cleaned under neath yet, but it is on my list. I am doing 50% water changes and have added salt. I have not bought any antibiotic type meds. I have only been using the combo of Pimafix, Melafix, salt and gravel vac w/50% daily water changes.

I noticed that the cotton like growth is gone but there is swelling that appears pinkish red. Not sure if that means its starting to heal or getting worse. His mouth does not seem as distended as it first was.

He has not eaten but still has belly fat on him so I think he should be ok. I have been trying to tempt with some softer foods but not interested yet.

in all honesty hes probably plugged up really good. thats just my thought. your fish are... well for lack of a better term FAT!! haha. i really hope they work out but maybe cut back on food. itd be like u eating 1lb of cheese and then not being able to use the latrine for a few days.. in my mind at least. again GL and i hope that he is better by monday..

Its hard to feed everyone in a tank with aggressive eaters. I do a mix of pellet sizes to try and slow down the greedy ones but they just over do it while the slower ones dont get anything. So you could see who the greedy ones were , the Midas and Pearsei. The fish have been fed much leaner lately to cut down on the waste that helps feed the bacteria. The fish look very good right now.

And your comment about my fat fish reminded me of a bumper sticker: "So I'm fat, your ugly, I can go on a diet"

DMD123 wrote:
And your comment about my fat fish reminded me of a bumper sticker: "So I'm fat, your ugly, I can go on a diet"

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

ya i had a good laugh at that one too. my buddys dad has a similar saying.. you cant feel ugly in the dark... but u can sure feel fat..

I am not seeing any progress with his illness. I guess that could be a good thing since it does not look any worse. There is a swelling that looks to be under his teeth on the upper right and lower left of his mouth. I am thinking of moving some fish around and use the 29g as a hospital tank and start working at him with antibiotics.

Not a bad idea, but what if the problem is in the water? Just a thought. You should give him a bath. Either salt, Bifuran, Peroxide, or all 3, something.

madness wrote:Not a bad idea, but what if the problem is in the water? Just a thought.

Right now I'm medicating the 210g tank for the sake of all the occupants. No one else is showing any issues but the stress of medicating everyone is showing. All the fish have had reduced appetites since the treatment with pimafix, melafix and salt.

madness wrote:You should give him a bath. Either salt, Bifuran, Peroxide, or all 3, something.

This may be an idea but the stress of catching him and them putting him back in has me worried. But this might be way I will go.

DMD123 wrote:
This may be an idea but the stress of catching him and them putting him back in has me worried. But this might be way I will go.

I thought the same thing. But what alternative do you have? I lowered the water level to below half way, and then caught him. He is an Amphilophus, he is a hardy fish. Then slowly fill up the other tank. I put in sodium permanganate in the main tank while it was filling. Turn off filter while doing this. after about a 40 min bath, return him back into his main tank. He wont be happy or active, but he will come around.

Just an idea. Good luck...

Where did you get the sodium permanganate? What dosage?

What combo do I need for the bath? I need to buy the stuff...
Also dosage for this?

The only thing I have to give him a bath in is a 5g bucket, which he will fit in but he wont be happy!

I used a 7 gallon tote for the tub. Used non-iodized salt @ 1TBL/gallon of water, add Bi-furan to the bath also. The temp should be 72-75 degrees. Put large airstone in bath. Hydrogen Peroxide can be added also. I added 2 capfulls to my bath.

The potassium permanganate is found in a product by Jungle that helps clear the water. I have some, I will give you. Add the correct dose, (it says it on the container) to the main tank. Add salt (non-iodized) to the main tank @ 1TBL/ 10 gallons. Also add stress coat or some type of additive that will help coat him. The bath will break down his slime coat. I use Artemiss & Herbtana by Microb-lift.

So really all you need is Non-iodized salt, Bi-furan, and something to help replenish and sooth him once he is returned to the main tank. And Prime or whatever you use to make the water safe.

I could assist, I have the container, and the Potassium Permanganate, extra pump and airstone. I am all out of Bi-furan.

I forgot about totes. I have one in the garage. I also have the salt, Hydrogen Peroxide, extra pump and airstones. I need to stop by the store and check if they have the bi-furan. I dont see it listed on petsmart or petco websites. Who else local would have it? Aquarium paradise and B&I are on my way home from work tonight.

B&I and AP both have it so I will pick some up tonight and give the big guy a bath.

How about the potassium permanganate? Want me to swing some by?

madness wrote:How about the potassium permanganate? Want me to swing some by?

That I could use. If your free tonight after work I could stand a bit of help. I'm off at 5 and will stop by the store on my way home for the bi-furan.

Was just thinking I am a worst case scenario person. I dont keep a lot of meds on hand but I do have clove oil.

Let me know when your home, and I will cruise over.

Clove oil?

madness wrote:Let me know when your home, and I will cruise over.

Clove oil?

Clove oil is to euthanize fish in a humane way. It puts them to sleep. You can use it in lighter doses to knock them out to perform surgical procedures like fix gill curl in large cats and arowana.

I am having dinner at a friends around 7 or so. We should be done long before then. Let me know.

I will call you when Im home.

Thanks for your help!

Interesting article on using clove oil: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Interesting.

I have used the clove oil to put down a few fish now. If done correctly they just go to sleep and then you administer the last fatal dose and that is it. Kind of a complicated procedure but seems the most humane. Whats interesting is when people use it to knock out their big cats and arowana so that they can cut the gill plates when the fish are suffering from gill curl. That is a pretty interesting procedure.

Yep Im full of useless information!

Not at all, very good info.