Sump and Sponge filters

So, this weekend we had a 9 hour power outage in my hood. Luckily, I was home when it happened and I broke siphon on my sump intake and return line to avoid overflowing the sump and losing water. This got me thinking about a way to avoid this. What I did was install a different return on my sump. Instead of a submerged spray bar, I got a single outlet return nozzle and mounted it just above the water line so if I do lose power, the return line will not reverse flow, it will break siphon by pulling in air. That was one problem solved. I then adjusted my overflow box skimmer to break siphon before the sump overflows. I tested it yesterday and all was good.

Now for the sponge filter part. My AC110 HOB will start right back up without issue even if I am not there. My Sump, however, will not. It will run until it pumps out the water in the sump and then be useless. So, I decided to get some sponge filters as a redundant filtration system. This way, if everything cuts out and comes back on, I will still have sufficient filtration for my precious F1 Mpimbwe Frontosa (Jukiaaaa's). I picked up two of the MEGA SPONGE FILTAAARS from Aquarist world. These bad boys are about 9" in diameter and about 9" tall. I have a big Whisper air pump and a gang valve (with stop check valves) to complete the system. I will hook them up when I get home today and take some pictures. The cool thing is, these are all black (unlike the ATI with their white bases) and I have black air line tubing, so it will all kind of mesh with my tank background.

You can never have enough filtration, but with a sump, if you aren't there to restart the siphon, you have no filtration. So, I think this i s a good addition to my set up.

or you can have an over flow box inside the tank its the little box that looks like a castle this keeps the water level at the perfect point in side of the box so that it never breaks siphon

shua wrote:or you can have an over flow box inside the tank its the little box that looks like a castle this keeps the water level at the perfect point in side of the box so that it never breaks siphon

I have that. However, when the power goes out and it drains that box it will break siphon. If it never breaks siphon it will empty the tank if the water is not being returned to the tank from the sump (power out - no pump).

THis is the exact bow I have..

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That's wierd, ours doesn't. When the power comes back on it just starts flowing again. The syphon never breaks

Ashley wrote:That's wierd, ours doesn't. When the power comes back on it just starts flowing again. The syphon never breaks

Think about it though, the water has to go somewhere from the over flow, right? It goes into the sump and will continue to fill the sump until it overflows if there is no pump to return the water flowing into the sump back into the tank. The only way it will stop flowing into the sump is if it breaks siphon.

Yeah but as the water level in the tank goes down to the bottom of the teeth to the overflow box it will stop flowing into the sump. and as soon as the power comes back on, the pump turns on again, the water level rises again, and then water starts filling the overflow box and starts working again. the sump will never overflow... you must me doing something different than we are

Ashley wrote:Yeah but as the water level in the tank goes down to the bottom of the teeth to the overflow box it will stop flowing into the sump. and as soon as the power comes back on, the pump turns on again, the water level rises again, and then water starts filling the overflow box and starts working again. the sump will never overflow... you must me doing something different than we are

Right, but the siphon tube in that box will pull water until it gets air, with no more water entering the box that will happen eventually. The only way that would work is if the power came back on before that box was emptied. Since the water is drawn from the tank via siphon and fed via gravity (not pulled by a pump) there is no way it can retain siphon under these conditions. The sump will overflow if the tank surface area is big enough to overcome the volume if the sump. For example, a 180 has more surface area than a 55. The boxes "teeth" (even if set as shallow as possible) can overcome the volumetric limitations of a 25 gallon sump given enough time and surface area, before breaking siphon.

Ashley wrote:Yeah but as the water level in the tank goes down to the bottom of the teeth to the overflow box it will stop flowing into the sump. and as soon as the power comes back on, the pump turns on again, the water level rises again, and then water starts filling the overflow box and starts working again. the sump will never overflow... you must me doing something different than we are

Ok, here is the problem with this..what restarts the siphon if you aren't there?

When the pump comes back on and starts filling the tank the overflow box will fill and start flowing from the tank to the sump again.

It sounds like the issue is that your pump isn't starting back up when the power comes back on?

larry.beck wrote:When the pump comes back on and starts filling the tank the overflow box will fill and start flowing from the tank to the sump again.

It sounds like the issue is that your pump isn't starting back up when the power comes back on?

It is starting back up..but the water has to get from the black box with teeth to the clear acrylic over flow box. It does this via 2 u shaped tubes that you have going from the black box to the acrylic box. If siphon breaks on those tubes, what restarts siphon? If you are not there to restart siphon no water flows from black box to clear box. Pump turns on and empties sump, no water re-enters without siphon.

cause there is water in the sump that gets kicked back in the tank from the pump....The syphon starts again when the water starts gettin too full in the tank and goes over the cuts in the overflow box....

Basically... gravity starts the syphon again .... I just think there is some kind of communication error.

Spyral wrote:

shua wrote:or you can have an over flow box inside the tank its the little box that looks like a castle this keeps the water level at the perfect point in side of the box so that it never breaks siphon

I have that. However, when the power goes out and it drains that box it will break siphon. If it never breaks siphon it will empty the tank if the water is not being returned to the tank from the sump (power out - no pump).

water cant siphon when at the same levels in two different vessels it will only level out thats why there is the middle section thats so the water will stay @ that level inside the black box

Spyral wrote:THis is the exact bow I have..

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Ok, after lookin at this picture spy, I see what you talkin about..... Im not sure how this thing would set up.... my overflow box is completly different..... and I dont have a sponge on the out put either??? I dont know how your thing works..... My overflow box is built in the tank.... there is no syphon and not two different compartments....

This thing looks all complicated... lol....

sandnuka wrote:

Spyral wrote:THis is the exact bow I have..

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Ok, after lookin at this picture spy, I see what you talkin about..... Im not sure how this thing would set up.... my overflow box is completly different..... and I dont have a sponge on the out put either??? I dont know how your thing works..... My overflow box is built in the tank.... there is no syphon and not two different compartments....

This thing looks all complicated... lol....

This is the same one we have....trust me it is the same as any other

Okay well that is not the question you were asking. You were asking about how to get the syphon started IN CASE OF A POWER OUTAGE (and the answer is...You shouldn't have to because if you know what you're doing, the syphon will never break!) .....Not "How to start a syphon" LOL and it is pretty obvious you don't know what you're talking about. Stop thinking you are hot stuff and get a grip on what people are trying to tell you. We are trying to offer information and you don't want to take it. Can you not accept that you could possibly be doing something wrong? and you call other people childish....

there is no way that you should be breaking siphon when the power goes out thats the nice thing about sumps if you need a vid posted later tonight i would be happy to do so.


and im not the one thats dumb enough to buy something and have nnnnooooo effin idea as to how to use it... and dont feel bad for me i like my helmet

shua wrote:... and dont feel bad for me i like my helmet

hahahahahaha wow this just made me LOL at work.

lets play nice kids.

apologys every one as well as you spy. ill post a vid if some one else dosnt befor i get home and sorry again

sandnuka wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

this is like our 150g our 250 and 55 are the retro fit like the one he has q about this one is nice cuz it never has any problems

I am new to sumps, no doubt, but you didn't just buy one and become super sump man! lol..

Ok, seriously, I just figured it out. The siphon won't break due to the isolation chamber, so given the water will remain at equilibrium, it will not break siphon..see, I learned something today.

Now, I have it figured out..but I am still keeping my sponges as a redundant filter system.

be carefull they clog ez. and ash made me learn first befor i could get one see there is a plus to being whipped

sandnuka wrote:i want to keep the whole thing up, without makin anyone feel dumb.. thanks

That's Ok..only 2 people called me dumb..lol.

sorry spy im @ work so i get impatient @least you can spell lol

shua wrote:be carefull they clog ez. and ash made me learn first befor i could get one see there is a plus to being whipped

hahaha...yes! I just like knowing about things before I buy them.

No worries man, it's cool. It took me a minute to figure out the level in the isolation chamber (due to the drain holes) would not get so low that it broke siphon, the design is purposeful and retains equilibrium, so as long as the return line does not reverse siphon (check valve or keep the return out of water) it will never overflow. I have a much better understanding of the equipment. Thanks for your help!

ok the box with the teeth and the box in the part with the sponges will equalize and not break the siphon.... you would only get reverse siphon from your pump if you spray-bar/return tube is lower than your over flow box in the tank that is assuming you did not put a check value on the pump...
quick synopsis of how your sump work...... lets say you have 10gls of water below your pumps about half of that into the tank till your water level rises to fill your overflow box then the box in and out of your tank will equalize the extra between the to (where the j-tubes were) will spill over into the sponge area and then down the drain returning back into the sump now when the pump stop pumping the the tank will lover to the internal overflow box lowest point then stop (there will be water in the internal overflow box and the center section where the j-tubes are both ends of the j-tube will be submerged thus not losing the siphon) and once power/pump is restarted the to boxes will restart and thus drain back into the sump (all this is accomplished but the the two boxes equalizing in and out of the tank) any problems you are going to have are a reverse siphon from the pump with out a check value or it be placed to low into the tank (blow the overflows lowest point)

icer711 wrote:ok the box with the teeth and the box in the part with the sponges will equalize and not break the siphon.... you would only get reverse siphon from your pump if you spray-bar/return tube is lower than your over flow box in the tank that is assuming you did not put a check value on the pump...
quick synopsis of how your sump work...... lets say you have 10gls of water below your pumps about half of that into the tank till your water level rises to fill your overflow box then the box in and out of your tank will equalize the extra between the to (where the j-tubes were) will spill over into the sponge area and then down the drain returning back into the sump now when the pump stop pumping the the tank will lover to the internal overflow box lowest point then stop (there will be water in the internal overflow box and the center section where the j-tubes are both ends of the j-tube will be submerged thus not losing the siphon) and once power/pump is restarted the to boxes will restart and thus drain back into the sump (all this is accomplished but the the two boxes equalizing in and out of the tank) any problems you are going to have are a reverse siphon from the pump with out a check value or it be placed to low into the tank (blow the overflows lowest point)

i wish i could have been this articulate with my words

lol did i get it all? its way easier to show how it works than explain it, hope it all made scene
oh forgot the sponges are taking the air bubbles from the turbulence in the water and the free floating particles (and will clog fairly easily) out before it returns into the sump.. there just glorified pre-filters

The sump is running fine, the HUGE sponge filters are in there and doing their job. I have to mess with my water level a bit to get it just perfect, but in the month I have had the sump up, there have been no issues. Thanks for the write up TJ, very informative.

Spyral wrote:The sump is running fine, the HUGE sponge filters are in there and doing their job. I have to mess with my water level a bit to get it just perfect, but in the month I have had the sump up, there have been no issues. Thanks for the write up TJ, very informative.

That, my friend, is a testament unto itself. Most people with sumps flood themselves sometime in the first week, if not the first day.

sorry every one cant post a vid my cam is down

Now that you've figured out to keep it from not breaking siphon. I strongly recommend making a system to suck out any bubbles that collect at the top of your U Tubes. This can be done by using a power head, using the venturi system that is supposed to suck in air. Instead you have it go to the top of each U tube, and any bubbles that get sucked in via siphon, will be pulled out by the venturi system. Also in the event that something happens to your siphon, when power is restored to the power heads, it'll restart the siphon.

The power heads can be installed on the lift tube of your sponge filter also, you could delete the air injection entirely, and make a more efficient sponge filter that way also. One day in the next 10 years, you'll flood your floor,due to siphon breaking, without something to pull bubbles out.

It'll be 3 days after a holiday, when you've been busy to check for bubbles building up, and your big fish keeps making waves, putting bubbles into the U tube. Protect yourself before you *NEED* to protect yourself.

i dont see any way to have air bubbles go into my U pipe with the overflow box. I have never had any such problem. i would like to see what you are talkin about

shua wrote:i dont see any way to have air bubbles go into my U pipe with the overflow box. I have never had any such problem. i would like to see what you are talkin about

Same here..interested to see what he means.

ill third that i know if its a DIY built one he is correct but the box overflows (with the clear U tubes) i have never seen them collect air in them, the air i have seen go in get passed right though in a instant

Hmm, apon further research, it'll only happen if your overflow is rated much faster than your return pump. Ie your pump does 1000 gallons, and youre overflow can do 3000 gph. It'll leave tiny bubbles in, if they were to go through.