Using septic products to aid filtration.

Has anyone tried using something like RidX or SeptoBac in their aquarium?

I only ask because even with the AC110 and the Cascade 1000 I still get a lot of solid sludge build-up in both the filters and in the little nooks and crannys of the rockery.

Supposedly the septic bacteria will breakdown solids, which our normal beneficial bacteria will process like normal.

Yes I use this about once every other month in my overflows or sumps. Works really well.

Madness wrote:Yes I use this about once every other month in my overflows or sumps.  Works really well.

What do you use?

This was written by a fellow hobbyist on a different forum. I started using it about 2 years ago.

Probiotics have been applied as dietary additives or water additives to improve growth performance and immune response, to improve water quality (by increased waste reduction), and to outcompete pathogenic bacteria.


Bacillus species such as B. subtilis and B. licheniformis are commonly used as probiotics in aquaculture, but there are numerous other bacteria species that are also being utilized within the aquatic industry. In order for probiotics to have any type of positive effect on the fish, they must survive in very large quantity.

Probiotics are usually defined as live microbial feed supplements which beneficially affect the host animal by improving its intestinal microbial balance (Fuller, 1989). Based on this definition, probiotics may include microbial adjuncts that prevent pathogens from proliferating in the intestinal tract (Gatesoupe, 1994). Most probiotics proposed as biological control agents in aquaculture belong to the lactic acid bacteria(LAB). But LAB has some limitations due to having a small antibacterial spectrum. These activities normally inhibit only closely related species of gram-positive microorganisms (Suma et al., 1998). However, almost all the pathogens involved in aquaculture are gram-negative bacteria. Bacillus subtilis, a gram-positive, aerobic, endospore-forming bacterium, would fall under this category, yet this is exactly what two of the fish food manufacturers using probiotics have listed in their ingredients as their only source of probiotic bacteria. The reason for that seems to be that spores of Bacillus strains are thermo-stabile which makes them much easier to use in heat processed pellets.

This is certainly not a new concept in aquaculture, these same type of heterotrophic bacteria have been manufactured for use in septic systems for decades, and there are a number of aquatic related companies that have been marketing these same types of enzymes & micro organisms for just as long.

A couple of fish food manufacturers have stated that their probiotic is based on Bacillus subtilis spores, a good commercial example of that being Calsporin, manufactured by the Calpis Co. Ltd out of Tokyo Japan.

Does it work? Well, according to the more positive studies, yes & no.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


While it does improve the overall feed conversion ratio (FCR) the food used in that study mostly consisted of soybeans & wheat, and while it did have a positive affect on the intestinal microbiota at the initial stages of the feed trial, that apparently soon diminished over time. The longer it was fed, the lesser the positive affect. Also, while it was shown to elevate the expression of some immune related genes, it did not improve the disease resistance of koi challenged with Aeromonas hydrophila, which is one of the most problematic species of Aeromonas found in commercial aquaculture.

So what does that tell the average hobbyist that keeps ornamental species of fish?

Not a whole lot.

If you feed your fish a diet that is high in terrestrial based carbs such as gluten meal, corn, soybeans, wheat, potatoes, rice, etc - adding a probiotic such as Bacillus subtilis in large enough quantity could possibly increase the feed conversion ratio (depending on the species of fish), thereby causing an increase in growth, as well as a reduction in overall waste compared to feeding the same quality of feed, sans the probiotic. It could also help elevate the immune system of the fish, but so could numerous bioactive compounds found in natural raw ingredients such as, Antarctic Krill, Garlic, Spirulina, and micro algae such as Haematococcus pluvialis. Not to mention utilizing key vitamins & trace minerals at levels that far exceed the industry standards. As an example, instead of having a post extrusion level of 140 mg/kg of Vitamin C, having a level of 500+ mg/kg of Vitamin C. (with most of that coming from the raw ingredients themselves) Certainly some of these bacteria have been shown in some studies and using certain species of fish that they can improve the overall feed conversion ratio ....... but of foods that mostly consist of wheat & soybeans.

Of course that's a non issue for anyone that is NOT feeding large amounts of terrestrial based starch derived from corn, wheat, soybeans, potatos, etc to their fish.

Beyond just increasing the feed conversion ratio, and promoting growth, probiotics are also very effective at reducing waste. From an organic reduction standpoint, this isn't exactly cutting edge technology. These exact same heterotrophic bacteria have been used to digest & remove waste from septic systems for decades, the only difference being that in the past no one referred to them as probiotics. And as many of these septic system companies saw the potential for added revenue, they started marketing and selling these non-pathogenic *probiotic* bacteria for ponds, and aquariums. The truth is some are just as safe, and work just as well, as many of the aquatic based products that sell for 10-20 times the price. Some are the exact same bacteria being used, with a different label.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



I first used a commercial septic tank bacteria approx 10 yrs ago (to kick start some new set ups) and was impressed with the results. After some recent changes in my personal life I found myself looking for ways to reduce water changes, and filter cleaning, beyond just keeping less fish in each tank, or simply adding pothos to reduce nitrates. I wanted to reduce as much time as possible performing regular maintenance, and I believe that I've found the solution.



While this is all very non scientific, here are my results thus far:


1. Water clarity improved immediately. My water has always been clear, but this bacteria took it to a whole new level. It became crystal clear.

2. It has removed all odours from the water. Not that my water stunk prior to this, but one of my tanks that has 3 plecos, and a lot of driftwood, would start to smell within a week of a water change. I could also always smell a hint of garlic in all of my tanks, but not since introducing this bacteria. Overall both the look & smell of my tanks has improved at least somewhat.

3. The overall organics in my filters has been reduced by at least 50%, probably closer to 60% but let's say 50% to be on the safe side. API states 62% reduction in their tests with their Stress Zyme product, and that's probably a very close number to what mine played out to be in my tanks. My 90 gallon is always munged up with debris/waste from my driftwood eating plecos, and after 3-4 weeks the sludge in those filters is as thick as mud. (and stinky!) After 3+ weeks since my last filter cleaning on this tank the one filter barely required cleaning, the other was easily 50% less dirty than normal - and what was left did not smell nearly as bad as it usually does after 3-4 weeks. Filters that previously could only go 3-4 weeks max, can now easily go 6 weeks or more between cleanings.

4. A tank that I have been fighting a cyanobacteria outbreak for a number of months now no longer has any signs of cyanobacteria slime/algae. A different species of algae (in a very small quantity) has managed to now displace it.

With the septic tank bacteria that I use (SeptoBac) I mix 4 teaspoons (1/2 oz) of the dry powder into a liter or so of tank water, stir occasionally for a couple of hours, then pour the solution divided between 3 tanks: two 125 gallons, and one 90 gallon. Most of the solids are left at the bottom of the main container, and not added to my tanks. What does make it in clears off over night. Some of my fish (especially my clown loaches) will eat some of the solids with no ill effect. For Canadian members this product can be found at your local Walmart. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So far total cost is $4.50 that covers a total of 340 gallons x 16 treatments, which works out to a little over $1 a month.

So far this has been a complete success, and that's not even factoring in the competitive exclusion angle with the non pathogenic probiotic bacteria, out-competing any potential pathogenic bacteria. Increasing feed conversion never factored into this experiment as I don't feed foods that are high in low quality raw ingredients, such as excessive amounts of terrestrial based plant matter. (corn, soybeans, potatos, wheat, etc)

Ultimately the goal is to reduce my water changes from 50% weekly, to 50% by-weekly, while at the same time reducing my filter maintenance to half of what it was prior to the start of this experiment.

Species involved in this experiment; Clown Loaches, Snakeheads, Midas, Severum, German Rams, various Corydora, several BN plecos, and an L14 pleco.

A product I have used: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Please Note - If anyone tries this in their tanks, please make certain that the products are 100% organic, biodegradable, and non-toxic, and do NOT contain any types of surfactants, perfumes, etc.

There is a product "specifically designed" for aquariums.... I remember Clark @ Pet Pourri got the product in & started using it. We had some lengthy discussions about it when I enquired about gunk accumulating in my sump. For the life of me I don't remember the name of the product. It's probably the same stuff Madness has posted just labeled for aquariums so they can mark up the price. I'll search around a bit more to see if I can run into it...

Tetra pond and several of the other aquarium product manufacturers make a product called sludge remover. Same concept just considerably more expensive.

I just started doing this recently after reading a link posted in a food review topic on the forum.  I had heard of people using the septic bacteria, but never did much reading about it in the past.  If this helps with the time I spend on filter maintenance, I'll be happy.

What product are you using Betty?

Donna, I use a product I found at Walmart.  It's more concentrated and doesn't have the fillers that were talked about, so I just sprinkle it into the tank; I don't bother to predissolve it because it dissolves quickly when it hits the water.  I'm only trying this on a few of the tanks to start with.  I've dosed them two or three times so far, but it's too soon to be able to tell if it's doing anything.  It hasn't hurt anything though!  I could not find an ingredient list, but since I saw others were using Rid-X without problem, I figured I'd give this a try. (I saw that Rid-X had a surfactant listed in the ingredients.) I'm not going to recommend it since I haven't used it long enough to know if there are any side effects.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thanks Betty...just making a list right now. I have three tanks with lots of wood and find that when I crack the canisters for cleaning that seems to be the majority of what I find in them...wood debris. Sounds like this method (the additional bacterias) will help to break down some of that wood debris...and that would be a good thing for the filters.

I would greatly appreciate updates as you who are using various products see results (or not). Thanks

Good thread.  Thank you, folks!

fishloverRon wrote:Good thread.  Thank you, folks!

  

Dosing rate? Anybody know how much Rid-X to add?? Went and bought a box but can't find any info anywhere as to how much to add

Thanks

Betty wrote:Donna, I use a product I found at Walmart.  It's more concentrated and doesn't have the fillers that were talked about, so I just sprinkle it into the tank; I don't bother to predissolve it because it dissolves quickly when it hits the water.  I'm only trying this on a few of the tanks to start with.  I've dosed them two or three times so far, but it's too soon to be able to tell if it's doing anything.  It hasn't hurt anything though!  I could not find an ingredient list, but since I saw others were using Rid-X without problem, I figured I'd give this a try. (I saw that Rid-X had a surfactant listed in the ingredients.) I'm not going to recommend it since I haven't used it long enough to know if there are any side effects.

Hi All,

The Dr Drain Natural Septic Treatment contains:

SECTION II - COMPONENTS (GRAS & Hazardous)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generally Recognized as Safe Ingredients: CAS No.
Bacteria Complexes 68038-70-0; 68038-66-4
Calcium Sulfate 7778-18-9
Sodium Bicarbonate 144-55-8
Dextrose 50-99-7
Calcium Chloride 10043-52-4
Protease Enzymes 9001-92-7
Cellulase Enzymes 9012-54-8
Amylase Enzymes 9000-90-2; 9001-19-8

Hazardous ingredients: CAS No. Percent by Weight
Calcium Carbonate 1317-65-3 <30 %
Sodium Chloride 7647-14-5 <23 %

The calcium chloride will raise the dGH; it also creates an exothermic reaction (releases heat) when added to water.  I use calcium chloride but I dissolve it in water first so my fish don't consume the chemical.  The sodium bicarbonate will raise the dKH (PH).  The approximately 30% calcium carbonate will raise the dGH as will the over 20% sodium chloride (salt).


As for the Rid-X it seems equally unappealing; here are the ingredients:

KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN.
Routes of exposure:  Eye, Skin contact, Inhalation, Ingestion.

Eyes May cause eye irritation.
Skin May cause mild skin irritation after prolonged contact.
Inhalation Inhaling mist from this product could cause irritation to the lungs and mucous membranes.
Ingestion May be harmful if swallowed.
Ingestion could cause irritation of the mouth and throat.
Target organs Eyes. Respiratory system. Skin.

Chronic effects The finished product is not expected to have chronic health effects.

Signs and symptoms Symptoms may include redness, edema, drying, defatting and cracking of the skin.
Symptoms of overexposure may be headache, dizziness, tiredness, nausea and vomiting.
.
3. Composition / Information on Ingredients

Ingredient(s) CAS # Percent
A-Amylase (EC# 3.2.1.1) 10% - 20%
Bacteria, complex with amylase and proteinase  10% - 20%
Cellulase (ID# 3.2.1.4)  10% - 20%
Subtilisin carlsburg
Triacylglycerol Lipase (EC# 3.1.1.3)  10% - 20%

I will stick with my 33% - 50% weekly water changes and regular filter maintenance.

Your all using this to break down some accumulated waste product in your tanks/ filters? Would it be possible to just manually clean those items and introduce no chems or spend any money?

I'm still doing my 50% weekly water changes, but I'd love to be able to increase the time between filter cleanings.  With 16 tanks running and some of them having two filters on each, it would be nice if this worked.  

Thank you for that list of ingredients, Roy.

TheFishPimp wrote:Dosing rate? Anybody know how much Rid-X to add?? Went and bought a box but can't find any info anywhere as to how much to add

Thanks

I just added 2 teaspoons to my 55g, and after 12 hours no signs of distress, and the water is already noticeably clearer.

Seattle_Aquarist wrote:

Ingredient(s) CAS # Percent
A-Amylase (EC# 3.2.1.1) 10% - 20%
Bacteria, complex with amylase and proteinase  10% - 20%
Cellulase (ID# 3.2.1.4)  10% - 20%
Subtilisin carlsburg
Triacylglycerol Lipase (EC# 3.1.1.3)  10% - 20%

I honestly don't see anything bad about those ingredients. Amylase, Cellulase, and Lipase are simply digesting enzymes. While Subtilisin carlsburg is also another type of enzyme.

Here is what I use: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

EARTHWORM® Septic System & Cesspool Treatment restores the essential balance your septic system needs to be at its best! It works by using billions of natural, highly-active bacterial cultures and special enzymes to help restore their necessary balance in your system. This is essential to it's efficient operation.



EARTHWORM® Septic System & Cesspool contains 100% natural bacteria and enzymes which provide a healthy septic tank environment:

Lipase: Effective on fats, oils and greases commonly used in your home.
Protease: Effective on protein matter such as meats.
Amylase: Effective on starches and carbohydrates.
Cellulase: Effective in degrading toilet paper and tissues, vegetable matter, and certain foodstuffs.

Family-Safe Septic System TreatmentThink of enzymes as nature's recyclers. Diligently working 24/7 to break down the organic material in your septic system. EARTHWORM® Septic is environmentally-friendly, completely biodegradable and made with sustainable ingredients. It does not contain harmful, caustic chemicals, chlorine, phosphates, acids or petroleum-based ingredients. Our natural process does not generate heat or malodors while working, so there aren't any harmful vapors. It has a neutral pH, so its gentle on your hands and skin. And like all of our products, it's safe to use around pets and children.



Regular use of EARTHWORM® will remove build-up in your septic system, potentially saving you very costly repairs over the life of your system. The naturally-beneficial bacteria are specially formulated to dissolve food particles, grease, fats, hair and human waste. They will also eliminate odors as they degrade the waste. Its biocompatible with a wide variety of wastewater and greywater treatment systems.

Website bookmarked, thanks madness!!