The Hybrid Argument

Ok Ok, This is always a good heated conversation to start.......... What are peoples thoughts on Hybrids, Flowerhorn, Blood parrot???? What about genetic mutation, or dying the fish...... anyone seen that done???? Ill tell you it freaked me out to see such a array of colors on a blood parrot... lol

Might as well speak my side..... I honestly have not really gotten in to the flowerhorns...... I think blood parrots are ugly..... In my tanks I like to Immitate the nature..... I like to have a tank set up exactly like Lake Tanganyika, fish that are native there, not fish that have been man made..... in whatever water they want it to be in......

Edited by Admin to add Poll

I am also not a fan of hybrids.

as with dogs doesn't pure bred+ a smaller gene pool??? causing all sorts of genetic defects ,,, physical , and less prominent mental??ie... agression, or un natural behavior??

My opinion of dogs is that the "mutts" are more often really good dogs because you are not trying to acomplish certain traits. There are only a small handfull of wild dogs. None of wich (imo) are loyal and trustworthy pets.

With fish its the other end of the spectrum instead of starting with only a few spcs you are staring with several and trying to pull out desireable traits. This causes a dumbing down of some traits and an enhancement of others. For example ask anyone who has been breeding flowerhorns for several years getting a compatible pair with the right dominant and resesive genes is far more difficult then throwing two central or south american cichlids of the same spcs and letting them do what comes naturally to them. But I have seen flower horns take out a dovii (top dog) that was twice the flower horns size. So with a hybrid I feel you lose some good traits and gain some. Really who dosent love a big nasty mean fish that can take out a fish twice its size.

I have a large amount of respect for the work and dedication that goes into creating some of these stunning flowerhorns. But I will never own one and I cull any fry that are a result of hybreeding in my tanks.

I for the most part I like "real" cichlids. However, I do own 1 blood red parrot, i think it's cute

As for the dog argument, ever heard of an Akita Inu? (NOT American Akita; they look very different. Most countries consider them 2 different breeds) Akita Inu are VERY loyal and intelligent, and one of the "ancient" dog breeds.

For flowerhorns, never liked them. They have some awesome colors, but the whole, fish with "balls" on its head never appealed to me

Now we are gettin started, So a little bit of passion on a subject in this forum...... Well we know my reall opinion, but because of lack of support....... I will play the advocate.... ive been in some debates over this, so I know allot of good points to bring up... lol

For the dog argument, The bloodhound, was breed almost 1000 yrs ago.... its specific abilities have saved more lifes than any other species of dog.... well if one of those dogs found my missing children, I would thank god everyday for that hybrid....
The aquarium used for eye decor in a home..... well, if you like to look at gorgeous pinks, blues, pearls, floating in crystal clear water why would you not own a flowerhorn.... There magnificent....

Are akita naturally accuring? I dident know that. I was under the impression that all "dogs" are derived from the diffrent variants of wolves, cyotes, and foxes. All of wich untill breed to be stupid and follow what the human tells you to do were unpredictable, and wildly behaved. Don't get me wrong I'm a very proud companion of two purebred boxers who I adore. But they are breed for certain traits few of wich would be usefull if there was no human interaction. So they are bred for human companionship as well as "human" jobs, rather then just following instinct to hunt for food, breed, establish a hyarchy withen a pack etc.....

Ok, good point..... so Dogs can be bread for companionship and the selfishness of the owner.... but fish cant???

the point I was trying to make with the dog example is that, as the gene pool becomes smaller(pure bred) purer. The animals become inbred,,, dumber , meaner, possibly deformed and a whole host of other genetic problems,,, this is the same reason it is illegal to marry your cousins. Wouldn't the "pure bred " fish be the same???? I am not talking about creating new species, just keeping a diverse gene pool

Ok Ok.... I hear you now..... Arent we creating new species with these hybrids though???? The flowerhorn is a new species, so is the blood parrot..... and this you think is wrong???? but you kinda justifyin it by saying to not keep inbreeding..... Wich I understand completly.... I raised a colony of WC (Wild caught) Frontosa Kigoma Cichlids.... My offspring were F1 (First Generation).

The Burundi Frontosa Cichlid has soooo much inbreeding going on it has now developed several problems such as mooning (Splitting of the stripes near the top), etc.... Its also impossible to tell if there are F1 burundi around anymore.... So I see your point on inbreeding, but your still against developing a new gorgeous species... Like the colorful flowerhorn???? Or your undecided???

I think the words hybreeding and inbreeding are getting mixed up here.

I think I am ok with hybrids ,, because pure breeding = in breeding

Wow this went way off course.... Are we talking hybrids or Incestual Breeding?
In breeding would be with brothers and sisters, cousins, uncles etc. occurs more often than not in wild schools of fish..
Hybrids are for example would be taking a Wild Pink convict and mating with a wild black convict to create what some call the hybrid Marbled convicts, Or a Flowerhorn (Hybrid) Paired with a Parrot Cichlid (hybrid) = Flower parrots (Hybrids)
Now when you take these fry and start breeding the brothers and sisters together then you have inbreeding and that is when you get deformities in fish and blah coloring etc.. Again this is just my opinion and Im sticking too it even if its wrong....LoL...

alright, so we got the definitions straight I think...... now back to the subject..... and everyone needs to get in on this subject.... its good stuff to read!!!!

In case we forgot.... Do you Agree or Disagree with Hybrids/making new species????? Please explain your answer!

Heck Yea Joe you know how I feel on the subject... Hybrids for me I love coming up with my very own sub species but no to inbreeding

Kingstature, ok buddy.... our awesome ADMIN, Mikey.... has hooked us up with a poll..... make your vote... Im curious just how many people love/hate these fish.

I think their okay as long as you enjoy them and don't try and pass them off as something their not. Being a hybrid fish in most cases isn't causing harm to them, What I don't support is the tattooing and dying of fish, that causes harm to them and I will not purchase tattooed or dyed fish.

Wow, I am impressed! as far as the poll is showing people are ok with hybrids... I guess because Im more of a naturalist and always was part of forums for specific species so it kinda got stuck in my head that they were bad.

I also don't like hybrids
I think man should not mess with nature, but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder
to me the blood parrot is very ugly looking lol

having a fishtank is messing with nature

I guess you can say that....
but having a fish tank and messing with fish genetics are two different things

fish breeding with other fish happens, and if the mix was benficial it became a new species eventually so theres really no such genetic tampering, now mixing a cichlid with a trout is another story

I dont think having a fish tank is messing with nature... I am taking a piece of nature and bringing it in my home... thats simply moving a piece of nature and building it somewhere else....
Gosu, cichlids dont cross breed from cichlids in other lakes.... so that would be the same as the cichlid and trout thing... kinda contradicting yourself.
sidekicking, blood parrots are hidious! I agree with you 100%

aaronfeeney wrote:I think I am ok with hybrids ,, because pure breeding = in breeding

If you have fish from different bloodlines you can keep in theory pure specimens which are not imbred, and should be just as they are in the wild. The problem with hybridization in cichlids is that there are those dedicated to keeping the fish true to what they were in the wild, and then hybrids that look right but aren't get mixed in. Then fish with spots, or whatever seep into the pure bloodlines and in some cases where the fish no longer exist in the wild this can be a very sad thing. Lake Victoria is a prime example.

I'm really not sure how I feel about this subject...yeah, it's cool to have all those different colors and stuff, but it does shorten lifespan. And even though they aren't hybrids, look at "glo fish". Chemically altered fish that appear to glow. Just normal tetras that now live just under about 3/4 of the lifespan they could.

So those of you that hate hybrids are you against Interracial Children, are they considered Hybrids and we should eliminate them as well.. Gimme a break, Hybrids occur in all aspects of life.. Heck look at apples imagine only having one choice of apples??? (Just an example)

nice...and yeah im married to a korean so our kids are gonna be hybrids...hmmm i wonder how many stripes they will have!

jesse705 wrote:nice...and yeah im married to a korean so our kids are gonna be hybrids...hmmm i wonder how many stripes they will have!

I know its crazy to think Huh... Dang Hippies....LOL.... Depends how many stripes you have and what part of Korea she originated from....

King, you're the king of hybrids though haha

Kings - you cant use humans in this argument.. lol... humans choose who they want to be with... Fish are being forced to cross breed.... its not like your giving them a choice of choosing there own species, or a different one... cause we know they would stick to there own kind. Racist little fish.. lol

Looks like the polls are locked!!! wow baby! awesome! I love to see this argument split. The hybrids lovers will continue there thing.... and the naturalists will continue there thing.... this will insure we always have both! LOVE IT!

sandnuka wrote:Kings - you cant use humans in this argument.. lol... humans choose who they want to be with... Fish are being forced to cross breed.... its not like your giving them a choice of choosing there own species, or a different one... cause we know they would stick to there own kind. Racist little fish.. lol

Looks like the polls are locked!!! wow baby! awesome! I love to see this argument split. The hybrids lovers will continue there thing.... and the naturalists will continue there thing.... this will insure we always have both! LOVE IT!

I can do what I want.... We place dividers between species to see if they want to pair up, so in a sense they do have as much choice as blind dates...LOL..
What about plants, apples, seedless watermelon??? Why not make things better?
And no it does not shorten life expectancy or health, I have a 13 year old flowerhorn that acts the same way he did when he was 3" inches big.. Hes not sick never been still has not slowed down... I see the argument if we were releasing these fish back into the wild that it would not be ok.. Also really how fair is it to stay pure and to take a fish from the wild and keep them in a aquarium for our own self pleasure?? Talk about inhumane.. Dont get me wrong Im greedy too and love owning wild purebreed fish.. I just chose to create fish that know nothing about living outside an aquarium... Also these are just my random thoughts on this subject they are in no way proven facts (Except I do own 13 year old flowerhorn thats a fact)

I had a heated argument on cichlid forums about this..I even made a video about it..lol

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Although I am no longer a threat since I have a species specific tank, I think it you have hybrids and keep them to yourself, then it is fine. If you pollute the hobby with them, then you are doing a disservice.

Spyral!!! LMAO! OMG!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, your video made me laugh so hard my eyes began to tear up... that was awesome! Thanks so much for the video link, it is a perfect thing to watch for the argument. I love it..... thanks!
and I agree with you 100% on your thoughts on the argument. Thanks for puttin in your two cents!

LMFAO I saw parts of that ... disagreement, but this was FAR, FAR and AWAY the best part!

sandnuka wrote:Spyral!!! LMAO! OMG!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, your video made me laugh so hard my eyes began to tear up... that was awesome! Thanks so much for the video link, it is a perfect thing to watch for the argument. I love it..... thanks!
and I agree with you 100% on your thoughts on the argument. Thanks for puttin in your two cents!

Glad you like it! lol

larry.beck wrote:LMFAO I saw parts of that ... disagreement, but this was FAR, FAR and AWAY the best part!

I'm too much of a joker to actually argue efficiently. I tend to lose interest and make funnies..lol

Can you really apply the word/term hybrid to human interracial breeding It's applicable with say a human and chimpanzee but doesn't apply to organisms of the same species, I have been wrong before though . . . Humanzee . . . sounds like a sequel to the Planet of the Apes series.

As to the "hybrid" fish/animal question, I fall on the not in favor of, side . . they tend to look inbred or mutant to my eye.

Here's my hypocracy; plants, I love japaneses maples, hybrid tea rose etc . . . not problem with those at all and I have them in my yard.

interesting convo! Picture of my wife below
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I really dont have a problem with hybrids.. Some of the coolest fish we have currently ARE hybrids... How else do you expect there to be any sort of evolution at all.. Hybrids is a big part of it... If the Hybrid was able to reproduce still and had favorable traits for survival it did so and passed thos on to the next generation..

I have 3 blood parrots and they are neat and look ok.. Brilliant orange and they are not died..

Would never buy died or tattooed fish

yes I know how you work jason... come up with this new species... call it a flowerhorn and sell it to pet shops,..... Awesome.

In my opinion, those Blood Parrots are an abomination, an affront to God and common sense.

Clogstonian I think your on to something but if african to european would not be a hybrid than neither would a blood parrot for that matter..

Interracial in my opinion is Hybridization... 2 races that evolved From one being and now thousands of years later they are crossing again... Those thousands of years is such a long time that they are a subspecies.. So in human terms i would think that race= species..

Scientific names...

Homo sapiens Blacky
Homo sapiens Whitey
aka

Labeotropheus trewavasae
Labeotropheus fuelleborni...

Little humor i know but i hope you get my point..

Doza wrote:Clogstonian I think your on to something but if african to european would not be a hybrid than neither would a blood parrot for that matter..

Interracial in my opinion is Hybridization... 2 races that evolved From one being and now thousands of years later they are crossing again... Those thousands of years is such a long time that they are a subspecies.. So in human terms i would think that race= species..

Scientific names...

Homo sapiens Blacky
Homo sapiens Whitey
aka

Labeotropheus trewavasae
Labeotropheus fuelleborni...

Little humor i know but i hope you get my point..

oh dude, you are going straight that really really warm place with that kinda talk!~
+ =

i was saying human to human and fish species to fish...lol



I said nothing of beastiality or letting lassie go at it with a lion...

WHat do you guys think of those too expensive housecats you can buy.... They are just reagular house cats bread with a wild like savanna cat.. That indeed would be a hybrid..

The cat is hella fast and can jump many many MANY feet.. Not a great indoor cat but they are cool as hell..

i know in fish there was alot of hybridization in fish... WHy do you think that many different species of cichlids have the same color morphs and they are a different species of fish..?? Ponder that one...


The OB Morph and what not..

FISH PURITY MUST BE PRESERVED!

what about hybread catfish i love my tsnXrtc he'll kill everyone

Hybrids make 8 pound baby Jesus cry.

that makes me smile i am going to buy more now

BUMP. Good topic.

Natural is Natural, and everything else is not. No matter how we square it, even a 1000 gal. or more tank is not a lake. And tank raised fish although they maybe pure (or can be), it still is not natural. So my opinion , breed what you like, be honest about what you have and always strive to keep your "fishies" healthy and happy. Soooo! I won't vote, because I think (my opinion), there is room for both.