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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-19, 15:02

So, I know there are many factors that effect how different fish interact with each other, including but not limited to: tank size, décor and obstructions within the tank, species that are being mixed, individual temperament and so on. But the general question I have is, from people who have experience with any these species:
 
Thorichthys meeki (Firemouth)
Cichlamosa salvini (Salvini)
Aequidens rivulatus (Green Terror)
Rocio octofasciata (Jack Dempsey)
 
Which of these, generally speaking, would be the LEAST and MOST aggressive? Assuming all conditions were met to give all their own ample space. Im strictly speaking of antagonistic behavior, not breeding aggression or a territorial quarrel. Ive owned all except the Salvini, and my personal opinion would be that the Firemouth would be the most "passive" of the bunch. My old Green Terror lived up to its name destructively, and so did my JD's, so their tied. But Salvinis, I have heard, can be downright NASTY to everyone and anything in the tank. Any opinions? Thanks guys  Very Happy
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Post  Madness on 2014-08-19, 15:20

As for your list I would agree to a point. I have JD in my tanks and they are very docile, take these same JD and put them in your tank and they may tear everything up.

With that said if you had a tank with just those 4 species in it, I would say:
1) Rivilatus (its actually not a green terror, the true green terror is an Andinoacara Stalsbergi)
2) Dempsey
3) Salvini
4) Firemouth

I am basing that purely off of size. Yes the Salvini is a mean little fish, but it is territorial, it will defend its area from all fish, but it is IMO a nice community fish to have in a cichlid tank. Once territories are established the fish know and respect it. To a point. lol

Firemouths get more aggressive in numbers, a solo FM is also a nice comm. fish.

As for the other 2, its all in the own personal temperament, they could be nasty as heck or guppy cats. But on average from my experience the dempsey is a notch below.

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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-19, 15:30

Thanks for the pointer on rivulatus, until I looked it up I didn't realize they were two distinct species! But then again, not surprised since I can often confuse a young blue acara with a green terror too  Rolling Eyes  Guess that general look is common.
 
Have you had personal experience with salvinis? How large do they tend to get? Where would you place a festae in that list?
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Post  Madness on 2014-08-19, 15:34

Festae are in the top 10 of must aggressive fish out there.

Salvini in captivity rarely reach 7+" most of the time 5-7".

And almost everyone refers to the Rivulatus as a green terror because that is what they have been called for many years. All of the local fish stores call them that, and most publications call them that. Why? Thats a mystery, but they are not, so I try to point it out as often as possible. Then people can do what they want the information. Smile

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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-19, 15:44

So would you suggest festae being able to be compatible in a tank with any of these guys? Ive never had a genuine interest in firemouths, so they can be put aside for now. But Jacks and Terrors and two of my all time favorites- would they be able to handle a festae?
 
Oh, and Ill go ahead and continue the Jag question from my other thread onto here:
 
Generally I was wondering about a general setup that work best for them. Ive heard many conflicting stories about them, from aggression to size and everything in between. Would they work, in a large enough tank of course, with other cichlids? Ive heard that they can be absolutely relentless in their aggression, and either need a HUGE tank to be able to stay out of others hair, or be by themselves/breeding pair.
 
I ask because their color and attitude have completely blown me away any time Ive watched videos of them, and the few times Ive managed to see one face-to-face. Are they any different from raising than a JD or Terror?

Thanks again  Very Happy 
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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-19, 15:52

What size tank are we thinking of trying this in? A 6ft long tank opens up more possibilities than a shorter one....
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-19, 15:55

Weeeeell... going off of the 45g I had before, a 6 ft tank sounds huge!  Laughing 

I was probably thinking about a 4 ft, between 50g and 75g, around that. Again, all speculation at this point.
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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-19, 15:57

A festae in a 4ft tank will likely decimate less aggressive fish like the others you are thinking of.
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-19, 15:58

ONE festae?!? Oh my... whistle
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Post  Madness on 2014-08-19, 15:59

JackDempsey8083 wrote:So would you suggest festae being able to be compatible in a tank with any of these guys? Ive never had a genuine interest in firemouths, so they can be put aside for now. But Jacks and Terrors and two of my all time favorites- would they be able to handle a festae?

I have Festae in all of my tanks (most all). They will coexist to a point, once they hit a certain size they will want the tank, unless the tank is a good sized tanks. (as all of mine are) which is probably why I dont see that aggression as much. Plus all of the fish that I want to be in a community, I purchase small say like 1.5"-2.5", and I put them together. Let them grow up, if some get to the point where they are not playing nice then I remove them and decide what i do with it. Festae with JD and Rivulatus can happen but that highly depends on the tank size. Festae can reach 14+"
 
JackDempsey8083 wrote:Oh, and Ill go ahead and continue the Jag question from my other thread onto here:
 
Generally I was wondering about a general setup that work best for them. Ive heard many conflicting stories about them, from aggression to size and everything in between. Would they work, in a large enough tank of course, with other cichlids? Ive heard that they can be absolutely relentless in their aggression, and either need a HUGE tank to be able to stay out of others hair, or be by themselves/breeding pair.
 
I ask because their color and attitude have completely blown me away any time Ive watched videos of them, and the few times Ive managed to see one face-to-face. Are they any different from raising than a JD or Terror?

Thanks again  Very Happy 

My experience with Jags is that they are an overgrown JD. What I mean by that is, back when the only cichlids available were you typical cichlids JD, GT (at the time), FM, Cons, RD, the JD was named that after the boxer, because JD were a mean fish. Today with the thousands of different species available JD is, what we thought as really aggressive, is now way down the list. When it comes to Jags they are a larger version of the JD, I have never owned a Jag that would tear up another fish. They get huge and use their size very well. I have a friend that put an Amphilophus Xiloaensis 10-11" in his tank with his 13" Jag, along with other tank mates. The Jag came out flaring at the Xilo, and once the Xilo got tired of it, it grabbed that Jag and shoved it straight into the corner of the tank. Jag never messed with the Xilo again. I have also had several Jag pairs breed in my community tanks, they mind their business and guard their territory.

But these are my experiences with Jags, and again mind you I have large tanks. Mixing Jags in a community may not work in a 120 gal, but in a 300 gal it is doable.

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Post  Madness on 2014-08-19, 16:01

Yes indeed, to be honest, Jags, Festae single pet only maybe a pair for a short time in a 4' tank

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Post  Madness on 2014-08-19, 16:02

A 4' tank will not hold 2 10-12" fish very well

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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-19, 16:05

I guess I didn't truly take in how big they got! My male JD got to around 9 inches, the female around 7ish, and they are the largest Ive ever owned... maaaay have to rethink this alittle  Laughing
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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-19, 16:07

Sounds like maybe the best choice would be a standard 75 gallon with a single wet pet like a red devil.
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-19, 16:13

Well, if they truly get that big, and are that territorial, I may just stick with what I know! I love aquascaping, building the ideal tank for the right fish. I love the personality of the large CA cichlids, but I think I want the challenge of trying to build a working habitat with multiple different species. Festae are damn beautiful, but whew!
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-19, 16:16

Oh, and have either of you ever owned any species of Geophagus?
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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-19, 16:18

I love having my large community tank. It takes the right combination of fish and personalities to get a tank where everyone gets along but it is worth it when you do.
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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-19, 16:19

JackDempsey8083 wrote:Oh, and have either of you ever owned any species of Geophagus?
Nope, never have had them
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Post  Madness on 2014-08-19, 17:24

JackDempsey8083 wrote:Oh, and have either of you ever owned any species of Geophagus?

Yes, what do you want to know?

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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-20, 14:26

Same theme as above, how is their temperament? Ive heard and researched that they are naturally very mellow (for cichlid standards). Would any of them be able to be compatible with a JD or a Jag, assuming of course territory and tank size are adequate?
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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-20, 14:29

The jag in a 4ft tank may be an issue if it decides the entire tank is his.
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-20, 14:32

Hehe, yeah, that would probably put a damper on the chance of any friendly neighborly behavior  Laughing 
 
What if they were raised together, or had a semi-young Jag introduced to a semi-established tank? Are any species of geophagus territorial enough to be a possible problem?
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Post  dwarfpike on 2014-08-20, 14:45

I would stay away from 'Geophagus' brasiliensis ... They act more like centrals than true Geo's, and I lost a Silver Saum to a brasiliensis that was half the size of the rivulatus.

'Geophagus' steindachneri would be your best bet if you want to mix with the JD/GT.

Most of the true geos are too passive, and the ones that aren't get large enough that a group would be tough to keep in a 4' tank.

Note: Tank size matters here, the larger the tank the more flexible the rules are.
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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-20, 14:53

The Jag will need a 75g tank minimum and will likely own every gallon of that tank.
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-20, 15:15

Ok, for the sake of the argument lets put aside the Jag for now, and stick with a JD. I keep forgetting the size difference and attitude that comes into play with them Rolling Eyes 
 
steindachneri are actually the species that I was just last researching, so Ill keep looking into that. Do the more passive species have a school mentality? Whenever I think of a typical geophagus my mind drifts to imaging a school of cories, I think because of body shape. Would a group 3-4 do well with 1 JD in a 55g-75g?
 
Some species Ive looked at:
 
steindacheri
tapajos
parnaibe
Gymnogeophagus labiatus
 
Thanks for all the help guys  Smile
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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-20, 15:39

I will sometimes play around on this site for stocking ideas: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Just input the proposed tank size, filters and fish and it tells you some basics. If you cant find the exact fish you can likely find a similar sized fish to fill its spot.
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-20, 16:00

Now THAT is a handy site!

Thanks for that info!  Very Happy 
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Post  Madness on 2014-08-20, 20:04

Again I could tell you that I have both Tapajos and Winemelleri and Stiendachneri in my community with larger cichlids and it works. But my tanks are not 55, or 75. It is hard to sell it as OK with a tank that is so small.

Sorry I know that is not what you want to hear. Maybe if you got them all at a small size, maybe it would work for awhile, or longer, but again it is so hard to answer that question when it is being done in a small tank.

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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-21, 09:53

Thanks for all the info guys, greatly appreciated! Smile 
 
I guess it just comes down to what Ive been exposed to. In my world, a 55-75g tank is HUGE. But that's just because Ive never had anything bigger. So until I have an opportunity to grow up in size the idea of a 125g or larger is impossible for me to imagine, space and money wise. Itll come with time Im sure.  Very Happy
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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-21, 11:10

Totally understand. Its just the possibilities really open up with a larger tank. If you are willing to do a 55g, you might as well just do a 75g, same length but wider so you could then have the ability to raise at least one of the bigger cichlids you had mentioned. Keep your eyes peeled on Craigslist and many times you can find some nice larger sized tanks for pretty reasonable. Or if you wait for the Petco $1 per gallon sale you could get that 55 gallon.
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-21, 12:49

DMD123 wrote:Totally understand. Its just the possibilities really open up with a larger tank. If you are willing to do a 55g, you might as well just do a 75g, same length but wider so you could then have the ability to raise at least one of the bigger cichlids you had mentioned.
 
Sounds like a good plan!
 
Definitely have the aspiration to own some larger species, so owning larger tanks will come with time Im sure. Thanks for all the great advice and pointers  Very Happy
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Post  Madness on 2014-08-21, 13:35

JackDempsey8083 wrote:
DMD123 wrote:Totally understand. Its just the possibilities really open up with a larger tank. If you are willing to do a 55g, you might as well just do a 75g, same length but wider so you could then have the ability to raise at least one of the bigger cichlids you had mentioned.
 
Sounds like a good plan!
 
Definitely have the aspiration to own some larger species, so owning larger tanks will come with time Im sure. Thanks for all the great advice and pointers  Very Happy

If you are ever down south or have an urge for a day trip, let me know I would love to show you my fish room to give you some ideas as to what I have that works and why it works, plus you can see several different cichlid species that may peek your interest.

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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-21, 13:37

Madness wrote:plus you can see several different cichlid species that may peek your interest.
Many cichlids you will never see in your typical big box pet stores! You will get all kinds of ideas!  Very Happy 
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Post  dwarfpike on 2014-08-21, 14:46

They Gymnogeophagus would require a cool down period of 3 months or so that the JD wouldn't appreciate.

While it's possible with a mild enough JD to possibly mix them with Tapajos Orangeheads or Parnaibe, the tank size wouldn't let them get away from an even mildly pushy JD.

If I were to try it, I'd most definitely go with the Steiny's.
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-21, 15:27

Madness wrote:

If you are ever down south or have an urge for a day trip, let me know I would love to show you my fish room to give you some ideas as to what I have that works and why it works, plus you can see several different cichlid species that may peek your interest.
 
Again, sounds like a good plan! Although Im away at Job Corps now, I should be done with my training around February. As soon as Im planted somewhere, and get situated I would LOVE to take you up on that offer!  Very Happy  Ive seen some examples of you talking about your setup in different threads, and the idea of seeing it is mindboggling  Shocked Where do you get all your 'uncommon' stock?
 
dwarfpike, what do you mean by the "cooldown" period?
 
Does raising fish together ever soften the territorial urge at all? Example, in a 75g tank putting in a 2'' JD and two 2'' Tapajos. Would "growing up" together lessen the urge to dominate at all?
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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-21, 15:34

JackDempsey8083 wrote: Does raising fish together ever soften the territorial urge at all? Example, in a 75g tank putting in a 2'' JD and two 2'' Tapajos. Would "growing up" together lessen the urge to dominate at all?

Will depend much on the fish, but generally they are much more tolerant of each other when raise up as young in the same tank.
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Post  Madness on 2014-08-21, 15:35

JackDempsey8083 wrote:
Does raising fish together ever soften the territorial urge at all? Example, in a 75g tank putting in a 2'' JD and two 2'' Tapajos. Would "growing up" together lessen the urge to dominate at all?

I personally have had great success with this. Not necessarily JD and Tapajos but with Cichlids in general.

I order most of my stock from suppliers that order in from down south.

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Post  DMD123 on 2014-08-21, 15:39

Going to also mention the footprint is probably the main issue. In nature many of the cichlids will defend an area of up to four feet as their own. So if you can find a longer footprint even though dealing with the same number of gallons you may have better success.

As an example a standard 75g at 4ft may present challenges when trying to raise fish together but find a rare 75 Long with dimensions of 72 x 18 x 13 and they might just get along just fine.
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-21, 15:49

Madness wrote:

I order most of my stock from suppliers that order in from down south.  
 
Does that come from breeders in-country, or are they wild caught? I would figure a mix of both, but many of the species you have Ive looked up, and most seem to be only readily accessible from the wild, due to breeding difficulty or other factors. True?
 
 
It would make sense to me that raising them together would lessen it. For sure, if you were to add any fish into a tank with an already established cichlid with its own sense of territory, that's just asking for trouble. My first tank I tried out with my first rivulatus was a 45g, but it was deep. Quickly figured out how useless that was with cichlids. Angelfish? Sure. A Terror that only used the bottom half? Not so much  Rolling Eyes So, having a larger base but shallower than average makes perfect sense. More area the better.[/quote]
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Post  dwarfpike on 2014-08-21, 16:13

JackDempsey8083 wrote:dwarfpike, what do you mean by the "cooldown" period?

Gymnogeophagus aren't a tropical genus, they are found further south so their native habitats get cool in the winter times. For health reasons, most Gymno (and Australoheros) keepers give their fish a 3 month period down to the low 60's F before bringing them back up to the mid 70's F for the rest of the year. This usually triggers breeding, and many of the Gymno species tend to get bloat when not given this cool down period. It also seems to drastically affect their life spans as well (ie much shorter without the cool down).
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Post  JackDempsey8083 on 2014-08-21, 16:17

dwarfpike wrote:

Gymnogeophagus aren't a tropical genus, they are found further south so their native habitats get cool in the winter times. For health reasons, most Gymno (and Australoheros) keepers give their fish a 3 month period down to the low 60's F before bringing them back up to the mid 70's F for the rest of the year. This usually triggers breeding, and many of the Gymno species tend to get bloat when not given this cool down period. It also seems to drastically affect their life spans as well (ie much shorter without the cool down).
 
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Great information to know
JackDempsey8083
JackDempsey8083
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Join date : 2014-08-18
Age : 24
Location : Port Townsend, WA

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